Random thought:
Maybe Archer could come up with the Kobayashi Maru test. Enterprise could find itself in a no-win situation with the real Kobayashi Maru, and he wants future captains to be better able to handle it. I don't know, it could be a neat little connection to the other shows.

I like it, I like it! Often wondered if it was based on a real incident involving a vessel of said name. But it also involves the Neutral Zone and the timeline for that is immediately after the Earth/Romulan War. Question is was Archer still active in Starfleet at the time or was he busy with the newly formed UFP as I have a feeling he will be.

Maybe Archer will be the one involved in mediations between Earth and the Star Empire, helping to set up the neutral zone. If that is the case than Archer comming up with the Kobayashi Maru test makes perfect sense.

Anybody else? lotsa room for a lotta 2 cents worth!

I sort of always had it in my head that they changed the test to keep up with the times. So when Kim or Nog took it, they probably weren't going up against simulated Klingons. Maybe the only constant is the Kobayshi Maru.
But this would involve Archer,*gasp*, not winning and a less than happy ending to an episode. So I don't know if they'd do it.

And bring on the Romulan war people! I wanna see it!

Could be that the starfleet vessel that came to the aid of the Kobayashi Maru was not the Enterprise but another ( as not yet named ) in the original incident and by the time back up from star fleet and/or her allies arrived it was already too late.....

Sometimes the measure of a person is not so much how they handle victory but the disaster of defeat. Imagine the pathos of the Enterprise arriving too late to help in any way......

"Imagine the pathos of the Enterprise arriving too late to help in any way. . . ."

Or, perhaps Enterprise arriving in time but unable to thwart the destruction of the Kobayashi Maru despite their best efforts - and the frustration, depression and anger the crew have to deal with and overcome in order to move forward and continue their mission - and Archer's respect for his crew deepening in seeing how they struggle to overcome this defeat - and Archer's creating the Kobayashi Maru test with the idea that perhaps the most important resource anyone can bring to the table is not technological knowledge and learned skills, but strength of character and moral fiber . . . . .

VERY interesting Duffbeer - great idea for an episode.

"Zooks & Duff (lord it sounds like a country and western band) maybe the three of US should be writing the scripts for Enterprise!

Well, Sparkster, we know that Paramount is listening to *you*!

We already have one foot in the door!!!

I'm embarrashed to admitt this, but I do not recall the Kobayshi Maru incident. Please enlighten this ol gal.

I love the whole idea! Bring it on!

And another variation is that the Enterprise could get the distress call from the cargo ship Kobayashi Maru only it is in located in an occupied area of space.

Archer would have to decide against disobeying orders from Starfleet not to risk a diplomatic incident with an aggressive species, hoping that diplomatic channels will work; or going in and risk the lives of his crew and a war with a superior alien race to do what he knows is right to save lives.

The Kobayashi Maru was introduced to us in the opening scene of "The Wrath of Khan". It is a training test for cadets that is a test of character. It places the cadet in a no win scenario in order to see how they will respond.

The test:

The cadet takes the captain's chair. The ship the cadet is in command of (we will use the Enterprise) is cruising near the neutral zone. A distress call is received by the Enterprise from the 'Kobayashi Maru' (which is, I believe, a freighter of some kind - I think, fuel). Apparently the Kobayashi Maru is in distress and has somehow crossed deep into the Neutral Zone. StarFleet can not be hailed by the Enterprise at this distance within a reasonable amount of time, and there are no other Federation ships in the area to assist. The question - does the cadet risk an incident, possibly the destruction of the Enterprise and/or worse, by crossing into the Neutral Zone to assist the failing ship, or does the cadet 'play it safe' and not go in. If the cadet selects to go into the Neutral Zone (as is what happened in the Wrath of Khan), communication betw. The Enterprise & the K.M. is lost before the Ent. can pick the K.M. up on sensors. Then, 3 Klingon warships appear - and they are in no mood for explanations. They open fire on the Enterprise, eventually destroying the bridge and the bridge crew.



Oh! I must add - Kirk is the only cadet to beat the test.

Oh wait - are they Klingon or Romulan warships? Ooooooppppsss!!! Make that Romulan.

Thank you gadzooks now I remember. Kirk was the only person who was ever able to bet the test by sabotaging the program.

I believe they were Klingon ships.

While Kirk may have been the first cadet to pass the test, maybe Archer could pass the real thing.

Sparky please use the force and have the writers do more with maywheather. This character is greatly under used. And please lets see more of him in his blue undies.

Travis' parents cargo ship could be the inspiration for the Kobayashi Maru. If they were in trouble and the Enterprise was in range, you know they would do whatever it took to get to them.

Okay guys-I got this straight from the Great Bird if the Galaxy himself. There WILL be an episode featuring Travis Mayweather, his family, background, and possibly why he chose starfleet over the "family" business. The BIRD has Heard.

( He's workin' on the blue undies thing- no mean feat. might not meet with sucess but hang in there after all in the trek universe all things are possible)

Ah, to go where no BLUE UNDIES have gone before.......

Does anyone recall or was it ever mentioned the exact incident that triggered the Romulan/Earth war? What if it was the real Kobayashi Maru entering space that the Star Empire claimed as theirs- The Koybayashi Maru calls for help and the responding starships (including Enterprise respond only to have all but Enterprise distroyed. To save face for losing their vessels to an "inferior" ship and trespassing into "romulan" space the Star Empire declares war....

The draw results in that particular area of space designated as the neutral zone and Archer designs the test named after the brave crew of the Kobayashi Maru not only to train future captains(and test their "mettle") but to remember their fallen comrades and keep the incident forever in memory.

Possible-whatcha think?

Very possible. I like the idea of the Kobayashi Maru getting trapped in Romulan territory and the Enterprise coming to the rescue. This would be a great way to spark the upcoming war.

The name of the ship really doesn't matter, for in the cadet training test they would have to vary and change scenerios or the next class would know what to expect. The whole idea of the test is to put the cadets and mainly the Captain cadet in a no win scenerio and test the character of that individual.

But you got to remember once the war begins it will last years, so it will change the focus of the Enterprise to war and not exploration. On one hand the war will be a rallying point for an alliance (i.e. Federation) to be formed to fight the Romulans and on the other hand it will get very militaristic.

There is another thing that no one has hit upon yet. The treaty between the Federation and the Romulans that states that the Federation can not pursue cloaking tecnology while the Romulans can keep theirs but not to further develop it. I don't know who on the Federation agreed to this but I always thought it was not in the best interest of the Federation. I believe this is the treaty that ends the war, which means it may not be in the scope of this series.

Something to think about, eh?

Hmmmmmm. I'm thinkin'. Sounds like a vulcan claus to me. They might think that the romulans loose in the galaxy with cloaking devises are bad enough-but humans??????? It's bad enough that we're cruising the universe. We can't pursue cloaking technology....

But there's nothing that says anything about it "falling" into our laps, is there?

Exploring the Romulan/Federation war on Enterprise is problamatic. I would love to see it, but the series would have to be longer then 7 years.

I think as Enterprise approaches the end of it's run, they should be building up to war, and then maybe in the last episode all h**l can break loose. Then they could make a film that takes place so many years later as the war is coming to an end. That way we could have the big battle scenes in the A story line, while in the B story line Archer risks life and crew to build peace between Romulas and the Federation.

Just a thought.

I like it, Excalibur! That sounds good. All along the way small skirmishes can be taking place and a lot of conspiricy and espionage of course. Bring it on!

And as Admiral (or Ambassador) Archer is preparing for yet another peace mission, he is reunited with his old science officer T'Pol, now a senior member of the Vulcan High Command, who introduces her son who looks suspiciously like a human with pointed ears! Is it possible?

LOL! I love it!

Why not also give T'Pol a daughter that has a southern accent and looks good in blue underwear too?

QUOTE (Excalibur @ Feb 19 2003, 10:28 PM)

LOL!  I love it! Why not also give T'Pol a daughter that has a southern accent and looks good in blue underwear too?

You couldn't let it go could ya????

I figured it was going to get said, I might as well say it first.

I know the Fed./Rom. war is fuzzy, which is a good thing it was never really fleshed out, because it leaves the writers open to be creative, but dose Ambassador Sarek have anything to do with it?

I don't know any more then a few words in Japanese, but dosen't "Maru" indicate a cargo or freight ship?

It would be neat to see Archer faced with the "no win scenario" sometime soon. So Starfleet academy can start it in their traning.

I would like to see Enterprise at the end of her seven year run (hope I hope I hope) on the verge of war with the Star Empire. Perfect sent up for some Enterprise movies that could explore the war and it's aftermath. I would like the program to continue it's focus on the emergence of the United Federation of Planets and the Temporal Cold War. It as a story line would be able to stand by itself yet inhance any future movie(s) if movies are "in the stars" The Real Kobayashi Maru could play a key part in the last year of episodes( assuming it was a real vessel and it's distruction figured into hostilites that lead to war.)

(thought-if the romulans are behind the temporal cold war( and I've a feeling they are) is their motivation to stop the UFP before it comes about an attempt to change the outcome of the future war with earth or is the future war with earth an attempt to distroy the newly formed UFP because the teporal cold war was a failure?? You could run around in circles with that!

Excalibur- if I remember correctly the Fed/Rom war had been over for 70? years during the TOS timeline-have to pull out my old tapes and see 'bout that. If that is the case Sarek, who was a tad over 100 years of age (got to look that up ,too, in my trusty tapes)during the TOS timeline could very well have had some sort of involvement but not a major one-he would have been too young at that time thus lacking the nessesary experiance.

I've a feeling in this case Soval would be your vulcan. No romulan could put anything over on that one!


someone should start a thread on who are behind the suliban. could be fun.
Any one interested?

Excalibur-Live long and prosper,ya'all...

Sparky, Sarek was 103 point something, something, something in "Journey to Babel," which means that he may have already been conceived, or is only a couple of blood-fever cycles away from [I]being[I] conceived.

Maybe that's why the Vulcans of Enterprise's time are not acting like the Vulcans of TOS--they all have PPFS--pre-ponn farr syndrome![I]

I too enjoyed this episode, especially Tpol's comment regarding vulcan and human physiology. It was a nice teaser to keep the sexual tension going between Tpol and Archer. But alas, according to the novel, Spocks World, Spock was the first child born from a vulcan-human union. And because of the differences in physiology spock was in essence a creation of vulcan science. A test tube baby. But this little fact would not stop Tpol and Archer from engaging in a little harmless flurting. I do not see their releationship ever growing beyond the fantasy.

Outstanding episode.
(even without the blue undies. And yes I had to say it1)

I also believe that it is, at least one Romulan or maybe a faction of Romulans, if not the whole government that is behind the temporal cold war.

Wouldn't you just love to see the looks on their faces when they find out, that if Romulans hadn't messed with the past, the Federation might not have been what it became?

Don't you just love temporal mechanics?

The romulans as the unoffical founders of the United Federation of Planets-gotta LOVE that!

Does anyone know how long the Fed/Rom war lasted? My thinking is that Sarek may not have been around/been old enough when the hostilities started but may have been around/been old enough when it ended. But math was never a strong point with me anyway.....

Hey Evloner-Spock was the first OFFICAL vulcan-human hybred. As far as any unoffical ones-ya never know. After all Mestral has been running loose on earth since the late 1950's. Now we may assume that scientific intervention is needed for such a being as Spock to exist however wasn't there an offspring of a romulan officer who became enamoured of the captured Tasha Yar??????(recall that Ng episode?) Yar was not a willing victim and I got the impression that her daughter was not a planned pregnancy. After all , this is trek-a mix of science, fantasy, and entertainment. And since romulans and vulcans are soooo close genetically speaking...... Makes ya think, don't it.

And yes- I love all this temporal stuff!

OK Sparky, entirely TOO much speculation.....

No, too much coffee.

Yes, Sparky I do remember that episode. Tasha unwillingly is involved with a romulan and conceives a child. Its one of my favorites!

As for the connection between Romulan and Vulcan. Romulan from what I remember are actually Vulcans who were unwilling to follow the teaching of Surek and thus decides to leave Vuclan. Remember it was Surek who is credited for saving the Vulcan world. Vulcan was on the verge of planetary sucide and Surek began to preach about the use of logic over emotion. (It became sort of a religious revelation). As I recall, it was one of Sureks follows,( name I can not recall), who eventually betrays Surek which leads to his death(Sort of like Judas.) And the followers of (Judas) leave Vulcan and eventually become the romulan empirer. Imagine Rumulas starting as a religious commune for the discontented.

If there is anyone who can enlighten me on this topic please do. I'm an ol gal and sometimes the electrical signal does not cross the synaptic gap. I beleive I have the story right, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Evloner, I read "Spock's World" too and thought it was a great book. However, as many on this board (or those who were on the old one) will tell you, the books are not "official" Star Trek history - only what is shown on the screen or in the movies. Regarding the Romulans, I think you are remembering the book, rather than what has been presented in the TV series. However, I did not see a lot of TNG, so maybe I am wrong.

I do have one comment about the conception of Spock from the book. While the approach they present, using genetic manipulation in the laboratory to create a Vulcan-human hybrid, makes sense, it doesn't fit the ease with which various races in the Star Trek universe breed. In addition to Spock, there have been human-Klingon mixtures (B'Lana Torres in Voyager, Worf's first love in TNG), Cardassian-Bajoran offspring (Garek's daughter on DS), the Romulan-human daughter mentioned above, and I am sure there are others. Apparently it is realitively easy to have humanoid species interbreed, which is also proven by the future human found in this episode - within 900 years (only about 45 human generations) there are a number of "alien" genetic signatures found in a being who, at first reading, was human. This fits in with the "history" set out in TNG, where Picard learned that all humanoid races descended from one "master" humanoid race that seeded the galaxy. Consequently, I think the actuality in the Star Trek universe is that it is quite possible for humanoid species to interbreed, even though their blood may be green (Vulcan) or pink (Klingon).

Anyway, that is my understanding. I'd love for correction by someone more knowledgeable regarding Trek lore. (Lochness, can you add anything?)

For those of you who saw Jurassic Park-when it was discovered that the so called females only dinosaurs were indeed mating and having offspring one of the characters(not sure which one) stated that nature will find a way.

If it works for nature why not trek?

I have the mentioned book and enjoyed reading it (several times over) but I prefer Xteach's take on the trek universe-a lot more romantic than a bunch of scientists messing with genetics. And a lot more fun!

(think of the wild combinations one could come up with)

". . . one of the characters (not sure which one) stated that nature will find a way."

Jeff Goldblum's character - Malcolm.

"And then there's the screaming an the running...."

-Jeff Goldblum character, Jurassic 2

thanks xtech for enlighting me. I forgot about that TNG episode where picard finds that all humanoids evolved from one master race of beings who seeded the galaxy. I do like the idea that inspite of our outward appearences we all havemuch in common. I believe that showing the ease at which each species can reproduce with another would support this idea.

Nature will find a way=screaming and running. Umm, okay.

Better stay away from any nature shows. Thanks for the warning.

I think you'd be running from dinosaurs too! I mean, we are talking Jurassic Park huh???

I would assume that even this early in Starfleet, they will offer assistance to anyone who asks, even if it isn't policy yet.

Say a small freighter is being attacked by 5 ships as large if not larger then the Enterprise and more advanced, and they call for help. Even being outnumbered Archer would risk his ship and crew to come to the freighters assistance. I mean, what's the point of living, if you can't live with yourself?

Facing a no win scenario is something each crew has to be ready for, while praying they never have to. Would be nice to see how the writers could pull this off on Enterprise, and keep the crew alive.

The only thing I can think of is that Enterprise arrives just a tad too late to help, the vessels that did get there in time were distroyed including the Kobayashi Maru. Maybe there was someone aboard the Maru that Archer knew well....Imagine him and the crew of the Enterprise arriving to see the aftermath of the carnage left by the romulans.

Something like that would deeply affect them. How could it not.

Perhaps Enterprise's first sister ship (cough, cough, the Excalibur) could be the one to show up and sacrifice themselves in an attempt to come to the rescue of the Kobayashi Maru.

Have the captian be a close friend to Archer and Trip who had gone through Academy training with them.

That would defintely fire me up to go kick some Romulan aft sections!

And it would encourage Starfleet to make all their cadets face a situation that might mean death. Might be the best way to make the deaths of heros mean something if everyone after learns that how we die can define how we lived.

How about stirrring the pot a bit-not only the Excalibur but vulcan( they have a vested interest in humans,say about a hundred years worth) and andorian(after all humans are the new "pal") vessels get caught in the melee. An intergalactic incident just might get the formation of the UFP going-not only a diplomatic way of airing/solving difficulties but as a united front for the protection of those planets who choose to join.

The vulcans may not get involved directly with hostilities between earth and the star empire but nothing will stop the andorians from kicking some major romulan butt! Not that I'm dying to see the blueskins go after SOMEBODY with "guns" blazing! The relationship between Andor and Earth needs to be cemented somehow and nothing allies two factions together than to fight a common enemy together. With vulcan as a "silent" partner and willing to step in for diplomatic negotiations.....could be?

Here's a thought-if the incident of the Kobayashi Maru is a real one and it's distruction by the romulans somehow led to the formation of the UFP, wouldn't it be easier for the romulans(if they are the ones instigating the suliban) just NOT to blow the Maru into the next quadrant-just escort her out of romulan space with a stern warning?

Of course it wouldn't be as much fun

I know. Too much speculation. But what the heck!

QUOTE

Guest_WaitingforGodot Posted on Feb 22 2003, 01:02 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "And then there's the screaming an the running...." -Jeff Goldblum character, Jurassic 2

QUOTE

WaitingforGodot Posted on Feb 22 2003, 01:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you'd be running from dinosaurs too! I mean, we are talking Jurassic Park huh???

you've never seen some of the customers I've had to deal with.