Okay. I'll be the first to go out on a limb here.I've watched Stigma twice already(while it was airing and then again on vhs tape).

I must say I wasn't too sure when I saw on the opening credits who wrote this episode(the infamous Night in Sickbay Gang B&B) My first thought was "uh,oh".
I was suprised. The episode was good. Well written. Good story line. Well presented. Applicable for our time. Relevant.
The little subplot featuring Phlox's second wife Feezal was enjoyable. Not too silly and it offset the main plot rather well. The serious and not so serious in balance.
Nice to see we humans are one up on vulcans in the tolerance department. Question-is this the timeline when the ideology of IDIC comes into being? Can't possibly be in existance, not with THAT kind of general attitude reguarding mindmelders who practice their psychic gift.Wonder if IDIC comes about because of Paa'nar syndrome(sp) and changing attitudes.
Equally nice to see Archer as a real starship captain. Bravo!
Favorite quote;"It's mine to waste(time)" - Archer to that obnoxious vulcan physician

Granted it was not an action packed episode but one that put forth the idea of tolerance and compassion.

Not bad. Not bad at all (besides the spoilers for next week's episode seem to predict some serious a** kickin'-and my favorite blue people, too!)

It was OK. The scenes with Flox's wife were pretty funny. And I thought the FX shots of the medical conference were great. I don't know if I liked the Vulcan stuff all that much. It doesn't seem to fit with what's already been established with them. Enterprise doesn't take place THAT far in the past from TOS era Trek, where mind melding is no big deal(and I've never seen a Vulcan who couldn't). But oh well...

Next weeks show looks like it'll be more my cup of tea.

The AIDS parable was the one promised since the beginning of STNG. But as for the Vulcans... WHAT ARE THE WRITERS THINKING???? There used to be a writer's "Bible" as to what a character or race could or could not do. Too bad the writers aren't using one, or using a reliable one.

These guys in the ears and bad wigs may call themselves Vulcans, but they are nothing like the Vulcans put forth in TOS and ST3 and ST4. Hey, even T'Pau melded with Spock in "Amok Time," and a meld was necessary for bonding, and that came "from the time of the beginning"! This is only 100 years (mas o menos) for TOS--only a generation.

This HAS to be a mirror universe!

Well Sparky my old (he he) friend, I haven't seen the episode but it seems like B&B have put another nail in the coffin for continuity. The story buy the sound of it is good and I'm sure the acting as always is top notch but then they have to spoil it by creating a major inconsistancy to vulcan background.
Why not use a similar story line and a different race.

As far as I'm concerned B&B have absolutely NO consideration for the Fans at ALL in this respect.

I still LOVE Enterprise though .

QUOTE (Sparky @ Feb 5 2003, 10:39 PM)

Not bad. Not bad at all

Something completely off topic: this just reminds me of Q: I´ve got a TNG pinball-machine, featuring original quotes of the crew and other characters: and that´s exactly what Q uses to say when you´re hitting the light targets...
Back to the topic: No new episode of ENT here in good old Europe , but I´m really curious: could you please give a little more information on the plot than it´s given on startrek.com (or any link to a spoiler`s site?) Please: out of pity for me (and I guess Sabir and Waiting: stuck here in a place without ENT)!

darn it, I'm the guest

Well, I thought this one was definitely one of the better episodes of this season, though something about it seemed a little flat to me and I can't put my finger on it. Not sure if it was the acting, the direction, the editing, or just the fact that it was about the unemotional Vulcans for something that should have been a bit more of an emotional topic.

I almost think I would have preferred it to be someone other than T'Pol with the AIDS-like disease. Give us some emotion (or some of The Seventh-type emotion from T'Pol at least). I did like the non-volitary way she contracted it - a nice touch towards the stigma.

It came off as very clinical and cold to me though.

On the other hand, I liked the subplot with Phlox's wife, though I think it would have underscored the main story more if she had been attracted to Hoshi rather than Trip (everyone seems to fall for Trip!). Could have given us the gay angle more and given us a more interesting view of homosexuality in the Enterprise time period though I did like the Denubian view offset against Trip's morals.

I do hope we'll see eventually how the Vulcan's view of mind melds change over time. In the original series, it was still something not often discussed or practiced, though my TNG it was more of an accepted practice (recalling Sarek and Picard's mind meld). Would nice to see how the 'morality' of it changes.

Lori

Tracruim - The plot for Stigma -

T'Pol has contracted a disease - Pa'nar Syndrome - that Vulcans can only get from mind-melds. This disease is eventually fatal. In this timeframe, mind-melds are a big no-no because the Vulcans disapprove of the sharing of ones emotions/thoughts through such an 'intimate' practice. Vulcans who are capable of forming mind-melds are in the minority.

Phlox has been treating T'Pol for approximately one year, and has been able to halt its progression, however the drugs he is using are loosing their effectiveness and the symptoms are gradually returning. Since Phlox plans on attending a medical conference, he plans on asking the Vulcan doctors there if they have made any advances in their research regarding Pa'nar Syndrome. Of course, he must use caution for if the Vulcan High Council find out that T'Pol has been infected they will yank her off the Enterprise (and she can kiss her career good-bye). Phlox therefore tells the Vulcans doctors that he is interested in this disease for a disease quite similiar to it has effected the population on his home world. Of course, the Vulcan docs are suspicious. They give a 'we don't talk about these things to outsiders and we'll see if we can give you any info but don't hold your breathe' type answer.

At the Vulcan docs request, they meet with Phlox and T'Pol aboard the Enterprise. Suspicous that T'Pol is hiding something, they question her but she & Phlox dodge the issue. So, they tell Phlox sorry but they aren't releasing any info. Then Vulcan docs discover that T'Pol is indeed infected.

Archer also finds out what the deal is and challenges the Vulcans. At first, it appears that he has no luck with them either. Then, one of the Vulcan doctors secretly makes contact with T'Pol and gives her the info/drugs regarding the updated research. It seems that this doc is a mind-melder. We also find out that T'Pol did not voluntarily meld minds, but was forced. So our Vulcan doc tries to persuade T'Pol to come forward with the truth but she refuses. Archer also tries to persuade T'Pol to come forward but she still refuses. The reason - she does not want to validate the Vulcans prejudicial attitude towards mind-melders by judging them so that she can escape judgement herself and thus get treatment.

Eventually there is a hearing which does not go in T'Pol's favor, despite Archers telling the Vulcans what he thinks of them (T'Pol gets in on the act too but still keeps her secret for them). Then our Vulcan doc steps forward, tells the truth about T'Pol & himself. The episode ends by T'Pol being excused from judgement, but our Vulcan mind-melder doc gets raked over the coals.

Subpllot - Phlox's wife comes onboard, and is attracted to Trip (who else???). Phlox has no problems with this, but Archer


(-Whoops! Just caught this typo - that should be Trip, and not Archer. )


tucks tail and runs, much to Phlox's and Feezal's amusment.

********************

My thoughts on this episode -

Very good plot. However, I think the Vulcans are too far out of character. Prejudice is driven by emotions, and obviously our Vulcan doctors are very bigoted. Also I do agree that mind-melds would not be something that only the minority of Vulcans would be capable of.

In short - too much emotion for the Vulcans, too much irrational behavior, and too inconsistent with other series regarding the Vulcan culture. BUT I do like the plot - just wish there was another alien race that this behavior was pinned on.

And just a side issue - do you think that a culture that prides itself on logic would *all* wear clone-type hair styles? I can see selecting a style that is functional and all of that, but hey, no variations whatsoever??? No individual tastes here?. . . "I prefer this hair style to that" - *everyone* agrees on the same style everywhere you go on Vulcan????????????????? No individual tastes?????????????????????/

I am glad to see that T'Pol has other clothes besides her standard cat suit. (Recall the scene in her quarters. . . ). She was wearing another cat suit, but at least she had some robe type thing which is more Vulcan like.

I would have liked to see more of her quarters, and how different it is in decor due to her alien background.

And I loved Phlox's little scene with Trip and the way he quivered when he asked Trip "Did she offer to give you a rose petal bath?????????" Yes, our Phlox seems hot to trot. . . . . .

I agree with you scifispace. I would have preferred someone other then T'Pol being infected with this syndrome. This plot had a lot of room for passionate conflict. However, the Vulcans could not betray their code of logical/rational/unemotional behavior by ranting - they had to remain in control. So I think we lost a lot of the potential hashing out of issues because Vulcans simply wouldn't engage in a steamy argument.

But still, a better then average episode. . .

I can't stand these pseudo-Vulcans. Even the choice of language bugs me: "I'm AFRAID that I cannot..." Last time the Tholians were on (re: the spying station in the monastery), I was rooting for the blue guys!

If I'm out of line here, someone please correct me. But reading thru Gadzooks' very good summary of Stigma, I wonder if its true, fictionally speaking, that only a small minority of Vulcans can mind meld? Pa'naar Syndrome is very overtly an analog for AIDS. Anybody is in fact physically capable of getting AIDS in any number of ways, including the way T'Pol got Pa'naar - via what was basically a rape. However, like the Vulcans, only a minority of people actually engage in activities that put them at high risk. (This seems to be the case in the West, at least.) And apparently many people discreetly "engage" and never get AIDS. So the rest of us are able to ignore this minority of a minority and sort of hope they'll just go away. So is mind-melding a risky behavior, given the possible consequences, that the majority of Vulcans find distasteful and therefore choose not to engage in? I'm not sure where to go with this train of thought, but seems to me part of the message was, it really could be anybody.

On the lighter sub-plot, if I were writing this I would have let Mrs Phlox figure out by about 8:20 EST that Trip wasn't interested, and had her turn her charms on Hoshi. We don't know how Denobulans feel about same-sex match ups yet, maybe we'll see Feezal or another co-wife (or co-husband?) in the future and find out? Watch out, Trip!

Okay. I'm going to disagree on how out of character these vulcans seem to be. We are until Enterprise only familiar with the vulcans of Tos and NG timelines.Who is to say that for a short period of time(for vulcans)that there wasn't a reversal of public sentiment reguarding mindmelding. For example, look at how morals and public opinion have changed with sexuality from say the 1950's to now in our culture.
For example the practice of living together without the benefit of marriage-so common place now that most people don't give it a second thought when they hear of this type of relationship between a couple. What would the attitude have been in 1950? What about children born outside of marriage. Recall the stigma they had to bear? Now adays if your parents weren't married when you were born-who cares????

Recall the scene between T'Pol and.the vulcan doctor who hands her the research information and confesses that he is one of the minority. He states that there was far more tolerance in the past for mindmelding than there is now. Could it be that for some reason vulcan public sentiment toward mindmelding had changed(and will change again) Can anyone comment on vulcan politics?. We have a group here and now(earth) who call themselves the "Moral Majority". What if what we are viewing is a vulcan version of such a group who were able to influence vulcan culture for a short period of time?

I am in complete agreement with the opinion that vulcans capable of mindmelds are in the minority. But given the attitude are we really sure they are the minority. Maybe they are hiding in the vulcan version of "the closet" and have yet to come out.

As far as the coldness or lack of "passion" with this episode I believe we are being primed for more on this storyline in future. T'Pol is not cured. Her life is in jepardy still. And now the vulcan physician who went out on the preverbial limb for her is in danger of losing his career,his standing in the community,and more. Indications are(with Archer's permission) that T'Pol will"go to bat" for him with the vulcan authorities. There's to be a hearing. Fireworks may be in the future here......

We are looking at only one chapter in a continuing storyline. I for one will wait and see before passing a final judgement.

One thing I will state; I like these imperfect vulcans far better than the "perfect ones of later timelines(except for Spock and Sarek, of course. Spock was half human and Sarek, well he did have two humans wives-gotta be a good reason for that). Maybe it will be human influence that will teach them to be better vulcans?

I agree with scifispace. Although I like the episode it did seem sort of flat. Maybe more emotion could have been shown from Tpol. Yes, I know that Vulcans are not prone to emotional outburst, but Vulcans do have emotions they are just controlled. Maybe one symptom of this disease could be a lose of emotional controll. Tpol could have gave more of an emotional plea against the bigotry vulcans face once they are infected. But I did enjoy the story line with dr. Phlox. Who would have guessed it? BIG DADDY PHLOX got it going on.

Thanks Gadzooks!!! Can´t wait to see this episode myself.

From the beginning...this is the problem, T'Pau said the custom of the mind bind was "From the time of the begining." it was NO WHERE NEAR a lost art, and was seen as integral to vulcan culture, predating even Sorak and the vulcan philosphy.

Another point touched upon earlier in this thread, form a human perspective it may be nice and give warm fuzzy feeligns to know humans are one up ont eh vulcans in tolerence ( and every other race for that matter n almsot all reguards of social ethic) but realisticaly I woudl liek to see, A: humans beening the bad guys or less evolved for once, hey it worked in TOS with the Vulcans, Organians, ect, and B: the Vulcans to not be so picked on. The vulcans lie, cheat, and get all huffy in this series, whereas just within a single lifetime for most races they have a legendary statuus of honesty...so muhc so it is common beleif that Vulcans cannot lie...

Ahem-andorian incedent?

The vulcans get the rum treatment all too often in tis series...and the humans are far too grand.

Perhaps the humans on Ent appear too good because these few who are venturing out for the first time in deep space are the idealistic ones-the "skanky" ones will follow when the coast proves to be safer.

As far as the vulcans are concerned-that vulcans do/cannot lie is a spin on things They probably started.( I for one Never believed it for a minute). I mean, who else can remain completely expressionless while being less than truthful than a race that practices "mastery of emotion"? Nobody's perfect-even vulcans.

Major -


"I wonder if its true, fictionally speaking, that only a small minority of Vulcans can mind meld."

A new generation comes along once every 20-30 years. Of course, we are talking about Vulcans, but I don't see any reason why *not* to believe that Vulcans do not reach adulthood/sexual maturity at around the same age that humans do, for nothing was every said to the contrary that I can recall. Since TOS is approximately 100 yrs ahead of Ent., it would mean that at most, there are 4 to 5 generations separating Ent. from TOS. That would also mean that the Vulcan race would evolve in that short time frame from only the minority being able to mind meld, to everyone. (I don't recall any episodes from TOS, TNG, DS9 that stated there were exceptions to the rule. . . ). Personally, I don't see that happening.

It would be more likely that many/most have the ability to mind meld, but because of the dangers that Pa'nar Syndrome brings, as well as the social implications, it is very possible that many who do have the ability keep it very quiet. Maybe some are not even aware they possess it, assuming that they have never explored it or tried to engage in mind melding techniques.

I also wonder if mind melding techniques are something that one has to be trained in, or is it as natural to Vulcans as is walking? If some sort of training is required, considering the social prejudices that our present Vulcans view this practice with, it would explain why only the minority engage in its practice and thus, give the impression that only a few can do so.

Sparky -

I don't see the Vulcans of TOS, etc., as perfect ones. They could be rather snobish, almost elitist in their attitudes towards humans when it came to matters of the heart. I see them as rigid and close-minded when it comes to emotions.

Vulcan almost destroyed herself with the passion of her emotions, and so they adopted a logical and rational way of life in order to survive themselves, and to progress. That's fine. But, if a life of emotions works for the human race (as it apparently does in the world of ST), then it would seem to me that it would be the 'logical' thing to do to acknowledge that though the Vulcans prosphered by their stoic philosophy, its possible that another race would not. We all aren't Vulcans nor in their situation. And quite obviously, the Vulcans do not consider humans all that bad, otherwise they would keep their distance from us. But they don't. I found the Vulcan's of TOS to be rather stuffy and rigid when it came to the benefits vs. disadvantages of emotions.

The problem I had with the Vulcans of Stigma was the use of emotional words. I would have preferred to see them seething with anger just below the surface, but pretending to be cool (and failing at it) and in perfect control of themselves. And because the Vulcans are not bound to have an out and out heated argument over the issue, I think that there was a lot of dialog that could have been aided to the script but had to be omitted due to the Vulcan's very nature. And this limited the script.

In short, I would have liked to see the issue explored a bit more in depth. But then again, we are dealing with a one hour show. Oh well. . . .but as you say, maybe we are going to have a continuing story line?

Hope they don't drop us where we are here on this. . . .

[QUOTE]From the beginning...this is the problem, T'Pau said the custom of the mind bind was "From the time of the begining." it was NO WHERE NEAR a lost art, and was seen as integral to vulcan culture, predating even Sorak and the vulcan philosphy.

I could not figure out why this episode seemed flat to me until I read this quote from Zarove. Mind meld have always been apart of vulcan practice. Its just as much apart of their nature as is making verbal sounds is to us. To now make mind melding a taboo is truely going against trek lore. I wonder if the writers had ever watchef any of the star trek series or have ever read one of the novels before agreeing to write for enterprise.

I agree with you evloner. Stigma is inconsistent with other ST shows and the kind of bigotry that the Vulcan doctors displayed smacks of irrational emotionalism - something that Vulcans distanced themselves from long, long time ago in order to survive themselves. According to my long lost book "The Making of Star Trek", logic is as uplifting and as 'enjoyable' to Vulcans (forgive me for using that word Mr. Spock!!) as having a grand ole time is to us humans.

They would have to find a logical reason for Vulcan society rejecting the practice of mind melding, a view that T'Pol, a logical Vulcan, does not share. And then there would have to be a logical reason to reverse their current attitude on the issue, if Vulcans are to remain true to their nature. They would also have to explain how, within a mere 4 to 5 generations, the entire Vulcan populous gained the ability to mind meld.

I think this plot would have had greater strength if it was a story about a long time ago, when Vulcans were first adopting their stoic ways. It could have been the group that was attempting to surpress emotions and be loyal to logic in opposition to those who were still clinging to the old ways. The logical group saw no problems with mind melding, the other group did out of fear of Pa'nar Syndrome. But then, it would not take place in Ent.'s time period, but in the distant past. Remember, Vulcan is an ancient race compared to us humans.

In my post to Major, I engaged in a bit of conjecture, accepting for a moment the premise of the show (Stigma).

Still like the plot though - just not using the Vulcan as the vehicle to tell the story.

Gazooks-
I like your idea of going back in time to explain why vulcans of this time find mind melds taboo. The writters did a wonderful episode on the vulcans first contact with humans. (First contact was not with Zephran Cockran.) Although I can not remember the name of the episode, it involve the great grand mother of Tpol whoes ship crash landed in a small town in the U.S. An epsiode explaining this taboo would make it more palitable for me.

I loved the episode! Of course I don't have a problem with continuity - I just enjoy the show. I thought all Vulcans could mind meld also - they seem to be able to in Spock's time. Maybe their attitudes changed quickly - and maybe we will see a show in the future that explains how and why they changed their attitude toward mind melding.

I think the main issue is being missed here. The act of mind melding itself is not in question. If it is done within their rituals (relegion) everything is hunky dory. It is only when it is performed outside this context for pure pleasure that it becomes bad. Sound familiar?

T'Pol is going to be a big part in getting rid of this stigma, so that by the time TOS comes along it is all but gone. Thats what I think anyway.

Bravo C'Pok ! THAT'S what I was trying to get across here but you said it much simpler. I believe it's the act of mindmelding just for the experiance of it without any connection to religion or the cultural rituals-recreational mindmelding that is the taboo here. I didn't think anybody else got it. Bravo again. and Thanx.

Hey C'Pok-before you say to yourself "what in the "bleep" is she talkin' about " check out the old thread Stigma-the issue of mental rape- I've posted a theory/opinion that echoes your post here and there are quite a few opinions on it that are worthy of your attention as well. You might even add one of your own. Please?

Just seen this episode, one word, excellent.

Hey Sparky, now I know what all that "rose petal bath stuff" is all about.

I found Mrs Phlox quite attractive/foxy, is it just me?

And they really messed up the Vulcan cultural background as I knew it before this episode. Still a really good episode though.

QUOTE (Sparky @ Feb 11 2003, 09:13 PM)

Hey C'Pok- check out the old thread Stigma-the issue of mental rape-

I re-read that post Sparky, pretty much all was covered but in re-reading it I have an answer to those that think the time period from ENT to TOS isn't enough time to change the Vulcan perception of mind melding.

Today AIDS is not the stigma that it started out being. It is recognized as a deadly virus contracted between two human beings in which at least one has the virus and then swap body fluids (sex or needles). At first if you had AIDS you had to be gay. That scared a lot of people. That stigma has changed in less than 40 years, let alone two hundred years.

I think with T'Pol's and Dr. Phlox's help in finding a cure for this disease eventually, it will then yield mind melding as a safe practice and the taboo/stigma will also be gone. Even so, it remains a very personal and intimate practice to Vulcans even in the TNG timeframe.

Like I said I tend to ramble at times....

I appreciate your comparison for today's AIDS epidemic with the mind-meld disease. However, the meld, while very personal, etc., is/was EMBEDDED into the culture as presented in TOS, etc. (Even the Romulans. Check out the little seduction scene between Spock and the Rom Commander. She was surprised "to be so moved by the touch of an alien hand." ) The mind-touch/meld was necessary for the marriage bonding ceremony--and that "comes from the time of the beginning."

I think the writers need to gwt on the right track here, and pronto!

9...9...9...9...

Remember how T'Pol contracted the disease, it was with a band of renegade Vulcans exploring their emotions, clearly breaking all the Vulcan morality rules.

Also remember mind-melding has always been approved for relgious and ritualistic purposes, the taboo is the practice for pure pleasure outside the realm of religion or ritual. It has been brought out in several episodes across the series and movies that there are ancient procedures and rituals that involve mind melding.

Like I said, I am only speculating but when T'Pol and Dr. Phlox come up with a cure and the danger of contracting this mind-melding disease is over it will not take long for the logical and sensible experimenting with something new to prevail. This will lead into the TOS time period where it is not that big of a deal, although according to Spock it is a very personal experience, in which he had no problem performing the act on several occasions.

Oh, the Romulan commander and Spock in "The Enterprise Incident" is an example of Vulcan/Romulan foreplay, not necessarily prelude to mind melding. Although I would have liked to have seen how far it would have gone if they had not been so rudely interupted.

Does that make sense?

Very well thought out. Very Logical. I am beginning to see what you mean. I thought the writers were saying that NO from of melding was permitted. I mean, aren't the Vulcans touch-telepaths? How would they "do it" without touching each other, thus initiating a meld?

Ooh, THAT could be a boon or a bane. Your partner would know what you're thinking, which would mean you wouldn't have to give him/her directions (You fill in the dialog! ), but he/she will know if you think he/she is doing it all wrong!

As for "Enterprise Incident": I love how she gives that little shiver as Spock drags his two fingers across her lips and how she gives his finger a little bite as they are interrupted.

My, but it's hot in here!!!!

7...7...7...7...!

I agree. You got to wonder if that episode was being aired now that it would have gotten a lot HOTTER!

And they say that Vulcans have no emotions-HA! Can't get that kind of response if ya messin' round with a "block of ice".

But then Spock is half human.....

I always believed that Vulcans have very STRONG emotions--I think Spock mentioned that once or twice. For survival's sake they learned to really reign them in.

Besides, Amanda was a hot blooded human. She would not have stood for "once every seven years"!


3...3...3...3...!