duffbeer77
Jan 29 2004, 09:16 PM
It had always been my hope that Bajor wouldn't join the Federation. I thought they should take their place at the "grown up's table" and stand next to the Federation and Klingons as equals. I kind of saw them as Britain during the Cold War, maybe they didn't have the poplulation or large territory of the US or Soviets but they could definitley hit above their weight.
The Bajorans were very proud and capable people. It just kind of seemed almost sad to me that, after decades of Cardassian rule, they would just be gobbled up by the Federation without even attempting to try it on their own.
Um...don't mind me. Just thinking out loud again
Darth Ravage
Jan 30 2004, 09:14 AM
Kira Nerys felt the same way about Bajor and the Federation. She resented that after decades of tyranny and cruelty by the Cardassians, the first thing the Bajoran provisional government did after the Cardissians finally withdrew was petition for membership in the Federation.
She felt at the time the Bajorans didn't need the Federation's help--after all, the Cardassian occupation began with Cardassia extending "help" to the Bajora. In her eyes, Bajor was simply trading one extremely powerful master for another.
It was actually Captain Sisko who derailed Bajor's initial admission into the Federation in the months prior to the Dominion War. Had Bajor become a Federation member world, the Dominion would have mercilessly conquered the planet. But by still being technically an independent world, Bajor was able to sign a non-agression pact with the Dominion and avoid hostilities with them.
In the post-Dominion War era, we don't exactly know (or perhaps ever will know) whether or not Bajor actually did eventually join the Federation, but it is believed that by this time--2380--Bajor has finally been restored to a pre-Cardassian occupation status.
Bajor may very well become simply an ally to the Federation the same way the Ferengi eventually did...
duffbeer77
Jan 31 2004, 03:28 AM
Were there any references to Bajor's status before the occupation, which I guess would've begun around the TOS movie period? Did they pretty much keep to themselves? Or is it something they've never really talked about?
Darth Ravage
Jan 31 2004, 01:00 PM
The first onscreen mention of the Bajorans--also known as the Bajora--wasn't until the fifth season TNG episode "Ensign Ro."
But historically, the Federation may have known about the Cardassian occupation of Bajor since the 2340s--probably during the time of the Enterprise-C (the time of initial hostilities between the Federation and the Cardassian Union).
There hasn't been any onscreen evidence of Federation contact with Bajor prior to the Cardassian takeover. But there is mention of the Bajorans having rudimentary space travel during the 16th-Century.
From that, you can speculate that the Federation may have at least known about Bajor during the time of TOS--if not actually ENT--but did not intervene in the Cardassian invasion and subsequent occupation...
Excalibur
Feb 22 2004, 09:42 PM
I always thought that Bajor had been more of an isolationist type of people, who even though they had the abilities to go where no one had gone before, they didn't really care.
Then they had the occupation, that changed their entire way of life.
I have always thought that if we went back to DS9 after Nemesis, we would find that Bajor had finally joined the Federation, with Captain Kira in charge of the station.
C'pok
Mar 18 2004, 05:43 PM
| QUOTE (duffbeer77 @ Jan 29 2004, 09:16 PM) |
| It had always been my hope that Bajor wouldn't join the Federation. I thought they should take their place at the "grown up's table" and stand next to the Federation and Klingons as equals. I kind of saw them as Britain during the Cold War, maybe they didn't have the poplulation or large territory of the US or Soviets but they could definitley hit above their weight. |
You make it sound like joining the Federation is a bad thing. Of course they have their political agendas but it has always been the policy of the Federation to give as much or as little assistance as was asked for. Joining the Federation meant that if you needed and asked for help you would get it and all member worlds are required to pitch in as needed. If you want to remain independent that is your choice, but you would be expected to help if another member world needed it, but only if you were able. To me it is a win win situation.
C'pok
Mar 18 2004, 05:56 PM
| QUOTE (Excalibur @ Feb 22 2004, 09:42 PM) |
| I have always thought that if we went back to DS9 after Nemesis, we would find that Bajor had finally joined the Federation, with Captain Kira in charge of the station. |
I agree, now that the Dominion surrendered and Odo went back to the great link to cure his people the founders, who by the way owe him big time, and Sisco being promoted from Emissary to Prophet they would surely be joining.
I enjoyed DS9 as much probably more than any other ST series. It had everything. I so wish there would be a DS9 movie, even including some of Voyager's crew. It would be awesome. It could have to do with Species 8472 and having the Borg join in as allies, what a trip that would be. Guess I'm dreaming though.
duffbeer77
Mar 18 2004, 06:14 PM
| QUOTE (C'pok @ Mar 18 2004, 04:43 PM) |
You make it sound like joining the Federation is a bad thing. Of course they have their political agendas but it has always been the policy of the Federation to give as much or as little assistance as was asked for. Joining the Federation meant that if you needed and asked for help you would get it and all member worlds are required to pitch in as needed. If you want to remain independent that is your choice, but you would be expected to help if another member world needed it, but only if you were able. To me it is a win win situation. |
The same could be accomplished with an aliance.
Granted, we haven't seen much of the internal political process that goes on within the Federation but member worlds don't seem to be all that independant. Are they free to make treaties with non-federation worlds? Are they allowed to have their own militaries?
Bajorans seem to be very proud people. I just think it would be a little sad to see them give up their soveriegnty after having just gained it.
C'pok
Mar 22 2004, 01:17 PM
| QUOTE (duffbeer77 @ Mar 18 2004, 06:14 PM) |
[Granted, we haven't seen much of the internal political process that goes on within the Federation but member worlds don't seem to be all that independant. Are they free to make treaties with non-federation worlds? Are they allowed to have their own militaries?
Bajorans seem to be very proud people. I just think it would be a little sad to see them give up their soveriegnty after having just gained it. |
Sure they are able to make treaties with whomever they wish as long as they don't declare war on a member world in doing so. Sure they are allowed to have their own armies and military. Vulcan and Andor are Federation members and they have their own military, intelligence and treaties. Bajor would be giving up nothing and they would be gaining the support of a very powerful union, which in my book is an alliance. The Federation is all about freedom and self determination and sovereignty. Bajor and especially Major Kira was skeptical at first but as they saw the Federation in action, granted it was through the eyes of Starfleet, they came around.
The Federation screen new applicants very carefully so as to not to jeopardize the other members in allowing a new world in. Several episodes of TNG had the Federation rejecting applicants.
Bajor at the right time in joining the Federation would be allowed to rebuild and regain their rightful place among the intellectual community and they would have as much as or as little help and protection as they dictate.
duffbeer77
Mar 22 2004, 01:24 PM
| QUOTE (C'pok @ Mar 22 2004, 12:17 PM) |
| QUOTE (duffbeer77 @ Mar 18 2004, 06:14 PM) | [Granted, we haven't seen much of the internal political process that goes on within the Federation but member worlds don't seem to be all that independant. Are they free to make treaties with non-federation worlds? Are they allowed to have their own militaries?
Bajorans seem to be very proud people. I just think it would be a little sad to see them give up their soveriegnty after having just gained it. |
Sure they are able to make treaties with whomever they wish as long as they don't declare war on a member world in doing so. Sure they are allowed to have their own armies and military. Vulcan and Andor are Federation members and they have their own military, intelligence and treaties. Bajor would be giving up nothing and they would be gaining the support of a very powerful union, which in my book is an alliance. The Federation is all about freedom and self determination and sovereignty. Bajor and especially Major Kira was skeptical at first but as they saw the Federation in action, granted it was through the eyes of Starfleet, they came around.
The Federation screen new applicants very carefully so as to not to jeopardize the other members in allowing a new world in. Several episodes of TNG had the Federation rejecting applicants.
Bajor at the right time in joining the Federation would be allowed to rebuild and regain their rightful place among the intellectual community and they would have as much as or as little help and protection as they dictate.
|
So Federation membership is all take and no give? So what exactly is the Federation? I don't think I'm understanding. Is it a sort of alliance like NATO or is it an actual government.
And the only time I've seen non-Starfleet Vulcan or Andorian military vessels has been on pre-Fed Enterprise.
C'pok
Mar 22 2004, 01:47 PM
| QUOTE (duffbeer77 @ Mar 22 2004, 01:24 PM) |
So Federation membership is all take and no give? So what exactly is the Federation? I don't think I'm understanding. Is it a sort of alliance like NATO or is it an actual government.
And the only time I've seen non-Starfleet Vulcan or Andorian military vessels has been on pre-Fed Enterprise. |
No, it's not all take and no give. Each member world is required to pitch in and help any other member world if needed. They will not be asked to give more than they are able to. There is a government presiding over the Federation complete with a president to make decisions and they are elected from all member world's populations.
I think your example of NATO is accurate. Many worlds under the umbrella of the Federation. If these worlds were not allowed to have their own military they wouldn't be much use in the event the Federatin is attacked. No one is going to want to give up their right to defend themselves by joining an organization, even if it is the Federation.
duffbeer77
Mar 22 2004, 03:13 PM
I don't know how "official" it is, but in the June 1999 issue of Star Trek The Magazine it says that "the planet has to choose it's council members and the local militia must be absorbed into Starfleet."
C'pok
Mar 22 2004, 04:34 PM
| QUOTE (duffbeer77 @ Mar 22 2004, 03:13 PM) |
| I don't know how "official" it is, but in the June 1999 issue of Star Trek The Magazine it says that "the planet has to choose it's council members and the local militia must be absorbed into Starfleet." |
Here is an exerpt from the Articles of the Federation:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Article 46
Plans for the application of Star Fleet armed forces shall be made by the Federation Council with the assistance of the Military Staff Committee of Star Fleet Headquarters;
Article 47
1. There shall be established within Star Fleet a Military Staff Committee to advise, and assist the Federation Council on all matters relating to the United Federation's military requirements for maintaining interplanetary peace and security;
2. The Military Staff Committee shall consist of the chiefs of staff of the permanent members of the Federation Council, or their representatives. Any member of the United Federation may be invited to provide representation on the Military Staff Committee where its responsibilities requires the participation of that member in its work;
3. The Military Staff Committee, with the authorization of the Federation council, shall establish a Star Fleet as the armed, peace-keeping, forces of the United Federation of Planets. It shall be responsible for the establishment and maintenance of all facilities of Star Fleet, including armed ships, starbases, and training facilities;
4. The Military Staff Committee shall be responsible under the Federation council for the strategic direction of Star Fleet armed forces, and the other armed forces of the members when required for the maintenance on interplanetary peace and security;
Article 48
The action required to carry out decisions of the Federation Council for the maintenance of interplanetary peace and security shall be taken by Star Fleet, using such contingents as appropriate to the specific action;
Article 49
The members of the United Federation shall join in affording mutual assistance in carrying out the measures decided upon by the Federation Council and in assisting Star Fleet in the performance of its duties and obligations;
Article 50
If preventive or enforcement measures against any planet are taken by the Federation Council, any other planet, whether a member of the United Federation or not, which finds itself confronted with special economic problems arising from the carrying out of these measures shall have the right to consult with the Federation Council with regard to the solution of its problems;
Article 51
Nothing in these articles of Federation shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defense against armed attacks occurring to members of the United Federation, until the Federation Council has taken measures necessary to maintain interplanetary peace and security, and Star Fleet forces can be brought into action. Such actions taken by members of the United Federation in their self-defense shall be immediately reported to the Federation council.
The whole document is located at:
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/7851/articles.htmlLike you, I'm not sure how "official" this is but it sounds about right. The articles do allow a member world to hvve a military for self defense.
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