Excellent points, Ken. Without knowing all the technobable, I'd assumed they used part of the energy from the reaction to synthesize anti matter. As far as violating the perpetual motion law, I figured that, since the reaction releases ALL energy (at least that's the theory), available from the matter and anti matter, that, as long as they continue to scoop up hydrogen from space as they travel, they are indeed resupplying a matter fuel source. This all based, on the idea that they somehow are able to use some of the resulting energy to "create" anti matter to supply the second part of the fuel formula.

That way, by using "space stuff", they would not be getting more out of the reaction than they are supplying. That, or I'm completely off base!

As far as recycling the waste as fuel, Ster J, I agree, although there shouldn't be any, in theory, if the postulate that all energy is released is true.

Good point about the crystals, also. Yep, pretty sure they were simply used to channel the flow for the warp engines. (Hold the beans, please! )

Of course, there was that one episode when Picard ended up stranded alone on board the Enterprise D with some terrorists. You know, the one where all crew were evacuated so the ship could be swept with some sort of rays to eliminate some sort of extremely toxic waste which builds up over time when using the warp engines on star ships. The terrorists were going to use the stuff for some sort of "dirty bomb" type weapon. Can't remember if they said the waste product was the result of the matter/anti matter reaction or the actual use of this energy in the "warp reaction" which generates a warp field. But then, I digress!

Within the Trek Universe, dilithium is the only known substance that can withstand direct exposure to antimatter. Within the warp core, compressed streams of matter and antimatter (in the form of deuterium and antideuterium) converge upon a centrally-located dilithium crystal, which contains the otherwise explosive reaction and creates a high energy plasma as a by-product.

It's this energy plasma--sometimes referred to as electro plasma--that actually powers the ship's warp engines and other primary systems.

Well, warp engines are very efficient, but even they can't utilize the full power of the matter/antimatter reaction. Trilithium is the crystalized residue that gradually builds up within the dilithium reaction chamber over time. Trilithium is a very unstable compound that has to be periodically (and carefully) removed at major starbase or repair facility layovers because even a small amount of this stuff can actually vaporize a starship like an antimatter pod rupture would.

(The TNG episode "Starship Mine" actually dealt with this and showed what would happen if you played around with trilithium--it go mesa bombad boom!).

As always, Darth Ravage, thank you for your Trek Knowledgeable input! I was wondering about some of the things you said:

You say, "While ships can collect random hydrogen particles though the Bussard rampscoops (or collectors) at the tip of the warp nacelles, this is usually done only in emergency situations because the amount of useable hydrogen they collect is actually quite small."

If I'm not mistaken, you are referring to that time the Enterprise D was at rest in an energy draining area of space trying to contact some other trapped ship manned by beings who communicated in such a way that only Betazoids could "hear" them, and this only as a nightmarish type vision. In this episode, Data used the scoops or vacums to which you refer to collect small amounts of hydrogen from the surrounding space. This was then vented and the other ship exploded the hydrogen, freeing both ships.

But, in keeping with prevalent scientific notions, as I understand them, there's actuall a fair amount of "stuff," (mainly hyrdogen, the most prevalent element in the known universe), in the so called, "vacum" of space.

Therefore, if the Enterprise also has ram jets to go along with the vacums, they should, according to the orginal premise of these Buzzard (or is it Bussard?) jets, "ram" in more and more hydrogen the faster they go.

Based on this, and your quote, "It takes ten units of matter to make one unit of antimatter", I would think they would take the (plentiful?) amount of hydrogen fuel available as they move through space, use say, 90% of the hydrogen collected to create antimatter resulting in 9% antimatter (1 tenth of the hydrogen used), to react with 9% of the remaining 10% of hydrogen for a sustained reaction. The remaining 1% they could either throw back into space or store for reserves, as needed.

Like I said, Darth Ravage, you seem quite knowledgeable. Am I on the right track here? It would seem the only thing I am assuming is that star ships have ram jets which they use when in motion, as well as vacums, occasionally used as an almost desparate measure when they are at rest and will take any potential fuel supply then can get from the surrounding space.

Whadayathink?

Whatever.

I don't need an encyclopedia. It was necessary for me to know stuff like this a few years ago for a Trek-related project, and the knowledge has stuck from constant use.


Anyway...

Nope. The dilithium chamber is made out of a metal not too unlike that of the ship's hull (a duranium composite), but only slightly more reinforced. The whole point is that the dilithium crystal negates most of the matter/antimatter reaction. The chamber only needs to be strong enough to contain the intense pressures required to compress the incoming matter/antimatter streams and the outgoing energy plasma stream. It's when the pressure starts to exceed the safety limits, that we start hearing things like a coolant leak or a warp core breach in progress.

This is one of those areas in which scientific accuracy gives way to dramatic necessity in Trek. There is a lot of free-floating hydrogen in our Galaxy--it's the most common element here and we ourselves are made of it to a large degree--but space is very large and particles can be spread thinly in any direction for many light-years. For the Enterprise-D to do what it did in that episode, it had to have been (coincidentally) either in a very hydrogen-rich region of space, or have been collecting the stuff for a very long time beforehand. I admit my recollection of that particular episode is somewhat hazy, but the Bussard collectors can also be used to vent warp plasma, which is perhaps just as explosive as hydrogen and packs a bigger wallop...

The ship's forward navigational deflector array dish and tactical deflector shields actually works against the Bussard collectors by pushing a lot of particles away from the ship, further limiting how much hydrogen they can actually collect. Both the navigational deflector and the deflector shields can be altered to allow "frequency windows" for particles to reach the Bussard collectors, but they are likely to be very small.

Well, as Ken and I suggested, hydrogen is plentiful in our Galaxy, but it's also scattered painfully thin across vast regions of space. A ship could spend quite a long time collecting enough hydrogen for its warp core and it could be enough to propel the ship only a fairly short distance anyway.

This because of the amount of matter and antimatter required to go to warp. The faster you go, the more fuel that is correspondingly required. A 10:1 ratio (10 units of deuterium and 1 unit of antideuterium) is required for basic warp entry, but as you approach higher warp speeds, the ratio changes ultimately to 1:1--you will need equal amounts of matter and antimatter in order to really get anywhere within your lifetime.

This could probably work for the crew of NX-01--provided that they're not more than 100 light-years from Earth, but it probably wouldn't be much help to a ship that might be many times farther away. Eventually, a ship would run out of antimatter and would have to stop and collect more hydrogen. Under that scenario, a ship would always remain in a deficit regarding to its matter/antimatter fuel balance and would really end up going nowhere fast.

There were episodes in VOY in which the Voyager crew had to barter with various alien worlds for warp plasma in order to continue their journey home. Had the Voyager been stranded in a really unpopulated part of the Delta Quadrant, Captain Janeway might have been forced to abandon her ship and any plans to return to Earth as her ship would only be able to travel at low warp for short periods of time (the original 70 year voyage might have taken thousands of years)...

The Bussard collectors are really only good for impulse journeys or for very short warp flights (less than half a light-year or so). Even so, we're talking about a ship taking weeks or months (even years) to reach the nearest safe haven instead of a few days...

Spock was referring to the experimental Klingon Bird of Prey's impulse exhaust emissions. Unlike warp engines, impulse engines are still basically rocket engines. A common tactic used to track vessels at impulse is to follow the ion trail from their impulse engines.

The Kobayashi Maru was a neutronic tanker. "Neutronic" sounds like a technobabble term for some kind of made up fuel source that may or may not be used aboard Starfleet vessels.

Among the many types of starships in Starfleet are tankers, which can carry either deuterium or antideuterium. To use the modern navy analogy, these tankers probably operate near the edge of Federation space where long-range starships can rendezvous and refuel with them before going back on another deep-space probe or patrol into unexplored territory. Perhaps some starships refuel when they arrive at a starbase or other friendly port of call.

As far as NX-01, that's a very good question. Apparently, it has the same amount of fuel onboard as ships 200 years from now will have...(there was even an episode last season where they were freely giving the stuff away in the form of warp plasma). Perhaps NX-01 topped off their fuel tanks prior to heading out into the Expanse...

That's a good use for the red-shirt boys and bannister faller-overs.

Very interesting, ©Dragon_Rider©! Good one, styler001!

You seem to have a very good understanding, both of Star Trek technobabble and of actual scientific research as well, ©Dragon_Rider©. I look forward to further input from you!

And, welcome aboard this forum as well! I think you'll find this group thoughtful, knowledgeable, respectful, and just plain fun with which to interact.

I've been doing a bit more research and it appears that flight at near relativistic speeds will requite minimally controlled fusion reaction, which at this phase is quite difficult and would require vast amounts of fuel, or, more optimally, matter/antimatter based energy, which some threads I've seen indicate is actually more feasable at this point, albeit with many hurdles yet to be overcome.

These are the salient points to traveling faster than light as I have been able to find thus far:

1) And this is a biggie! We MUST come up with ways other than simple, basic propulsion to make a star ship move. This simply requires too much "stuff" (fuel) to be practical.

2) We have to figure out how to "cheat" Einstein's theory of relativity, or do an "end run" or some sort around it. We are pretty sure that time and space can in fact be and in fact is "warped" around black wholes, but the amount of energy necessary to do this is prohibitive and so we need to figure out how to do this more economically, fuel wise, or come up with some other method of "cheating" on the basic laws which govern the space/time continuum.

3) We have to come up with engines which make more efficient use of fuel than we currently have. As I mentioned above, this means at least controlled fusion for near relativistic speeds and matter/antimatter for faster than light travel.

I know that there have been, and will almost certainly continue to be certain points in our history when we take "quantum leaps" in the ability to harness and control immensely larger amounts of energy than we had previously. For example, when the Chinese first used gun powder to propel rockets into the sky, this was a quatum leap to the ability to release, harness, and use the energy which holds molecules together. When we built reactors, which harness the energy which hold atoms together, we took another quatum leap. The next logical leap might be fusion, which, as I understand it, controls the release of the energy of the nucleus of atoms.

Aside from the use of such ephemeral things as "zero point energy," which we aren't even sure exists, the next feasable step would be matter/antimatter. Along the line of molecular, atomic, and nuclear energy, I believe this is the ultimate, and end, of this path for energy sources, in that the reaction of a particle of matter with a particle of antimatter, results in the release of ALL energy available from the particles, at least as I understand it.

The good news is that we may actually achieve the use of matter/antimatter before cold fusion. I don't have the link, but I remember reading that matter/antimatter reactions release energy for a given amount of fuel that is approximately 100,000 times greater than fusion, obviously making this a much preferred way of economizing on the amount of fuel needed.

Not sure if I've mentioned this in a prior thread, but I can remember a friend of mine describing a talk show discussion with some scientists who suggested that one way of "rating" the technological advancement of a society is by the amount of energy they know how to access and use. We, for example, took a quantum leap when we entered the nuclear age. These scientists went on to explain that there may well be beings from other worlds who have harnessed far greater energy resourses than we have and who move among us without our even knowing it.

At this point, according to my friend, the host of the show asked if by that was meant that these other worldly beings were somehow cloaking themselves from us. The scientists responded that this was not the case at all and went on to explain: Imagine an ant hill with an active colony, working to maitain their colony, foraging for food, defending against other insects which might pose a threat, etc. Now imagine that this ant hill is located along a patch of barren soil righ next to a freeway onramp which leads to many freeways, streets, and even a large surrounding metropolitan area. All this is going on around them, people driving/walking right by them. But who we are, and what we are doing is on a scale so far beyond the scope of what they know even to look for that we go completely unnoticed to them.

The scientists suggested that these beings may operate at a similarly more technologically advanced level that we simply aren't aware of and so move among us without being seen and not needing any form of cloaking.

Intriguing, eh?

Ok, done babbling. Other thoughts? (Man, I eat this stuff up like candy! )

I agree - sorta. As I understand it, basic propulsion, (impulse in Star Trek terms), is all we are capable of making so far, although there are other ways being explored and researched. In this sense, the basic propulsion we use between planets is indeed the best "ship on the sea" of our solar system to date.

However, we could improve dramatically on this with current technological abilities. Kinda extrapolating on your reference to the fact that we don't use sail ships much anymore. For example:

1) What kind of rocket scientist decided that the best way to achieve altitude while within Earth's atmosphere is to stand the payload straight up and down and push it directly upwards, using over 90% of the ships weight, in the form of fuel, just to get into orbit? (I guess the only type of rocket scientist there is, since I just defined a rocket! ) But, c'mon now, we've known since the Wright brothers that a far more efficient way of attaining flight and altitude gains in an atmosphere is to use that atmosphere for lift, ala WINGS!!! But, like most government decisions, that's the way they came up with and once they started doing things this way, they stayed with what they knew. Only now are we putting on the design board ships that have wings to fly the thing into orbit and let the atmosphere do most of the lifting, thereby saving scads of fuel! Oh well, at least they've got it. Now if they'll just start using it!!!

2) We just sent the land rover, Spirit, on a 300 million mile journey just so it could get to a planet that, when aligned with our own, (which occurs once each year), is about 35 million miles away! I've read several threads on this and there are many scientists in my corner on this one: Lead you target and shoot for that nice nearby spot that Mars will be after about 35 million miles of travel!

The journey took 7 months to go slightly less than 9 times as far as it had to go to get there. Now, consider flying the craft into orbit, thus saving on fuel, using this extra fuel to blast the sucka' up to much faster speeds once out of Earth's orbit, which would be the speed at which the ship would fly for the majority of its trip, and sending it only 1/9 the distance to get there!

Just using one of these methods, traveling the lesser distance, we could get there in 7 months X 35/300, or .8 months, or about 25 days, rather than 7 months. This also would mean a trip to Jupiter, (the next closest planet), would take about the same amount of time we took to get to Mars, give or take a little. Using both we might make it to Mars in less than a week. This now puts Saturn within the 7 month range

In any case, I think that we could get to most planets with current technology, (possibly not Neptune or Pluto), in a reasonable time period (less than a year), with current technology if we just made better use of it. And, if we want to throw two years at the trip, Neptune and Pluto come within reach as well!

I thought the shape of the ship didn't matter in space. Being in the vacuum of space, shape shouldn't have an effect on the increase or decrease of speed.

That's true, but the shape of a hull does play a factor when a ship goes into warp, however.

Warp drive is--when you break it down--subspace travel. A ship forms a subspace field (or warp field) around it to "sneak" across or circumvent the speed-of-light threshold into subspace itself. Once in the subspace domain, the shape of the vessel's warp field does come into play--the smaller or more streamlined the warp field, the better the ship's performance while traveling through subspace. It's for these reason that we see ships in Trek generally designed with a sense of aerodynamics in mind even though it isn't necessary for normal space travel.

Even the Borg cube is somewhat aerodynamic in its own awkward way, but I suspect that the Borg may have assimilated some advanced technology somewhere which allows them to overcome any subspace (warp) field geometry problems.