Is Daniels in control of his actions? I think he may have superiors that he is taking orders from. Imagine if you will, what if his superiors are the two FG's? If so then that explains why he is so vague and isn't any more involved so far. I firmly believe he wants to help Archer and save Earth from destruction. I don't necessarily believe that either of the FGs want to save Earth at all. This would put Daniels in a very uncomfortable position. Somehow he would have to twist his orders in such a way to help Archer while seeming to follow orders. This would probably be pretty chaotic.
On the other hand, Daniels may be the one in charge. He may be orchestrating a very orderly plan that will ultimately be revealed to all. In this case I still believe Daniels is working for the greater good, which means some compromising will be in order.
This was just something I was kicking around in my brain, but I had to stop once the echoes got too loud.
***** HAPPY HALLOWEEN *****
Full Version: Daniels?
If we asume that the avians are still around and are sympathetic to human survival there may well be a connection between the avians and Daniels.
Daniels, being from the future, would know what was going to happen. He can't do anything that might derail the timeline, or he risks destroying the future.
I don't think Daniels is in league with anyone. I think he is a loyal Starfleet officer, just doing his job.
It would be interesting to see an episode from his end of the timeline. Perhaps they could do an episode, where a temporal incursion pops up on their "radar", and Daniels has to save the Enterprise from destruction as result of meddling from the future.
They could do the whole episode without the crew of the Enterprise even knowing anything was wrong, never knowing how close they were to ending their mission for good, when Daniel swoops in to save the day.
I'd watch it!
Like I'd miss an episode. What ever it was about! 
I don't think Daniels is in league with anyone. I think he is a loyal Starfleet officer, just doing his job.
It would be interesting to see an episode from his end of the timeline. Perhaps they could do an episode, where a temporal incursion pops up on their "radar", and Daniels has to save the Enterprise from destruction as result of meddling from the future.
They could do the whole episode without the crew of the Enterprise even knowing anything was wrong, never knowing how close they were to ending their mission for good, when Daniel swoops in to save the day.
I'd watch it!
Like I'd miss an episode. What ever it was about!
I believe that Daniels was sent to prevent the change in the timeline and was unsucessfull (the ep at the end of the first season where both Daniels and Archer end up in the aftermath of earth's future annnilation.)
He now has to "right" a "wrong".
I believe that the original timeline has both earth and the expanse (xindi) surviving.
An agreement or treaty if you will that the expanse is off limits to non-xindi. That the official stand with the Federation is that the expanse does not exist (at the insistance of the xindi) in order to "keep the peace". Explains why we never hear of it in the TOS timeline and after.
I believe that the reason for the altered timeline is that there is someone who wants the total destruction of the expanse for exploitative purposes. There is something in there they want and want bad. Cannot get at it as long as the expanse exists.
So set up a situation where others do your diry work thus keeping your hands clean. Then you go in and reap the benefits of their lunacy. And if a future complication/rival is trashed in the outcome as well, all the better.
Sounds like a plot/plan well thought out by a very intelligent,clever, manipulative, and exploitive people.
Any guesses?
He now has to "right" a "wrong".
I believe that the original timeline has both earth and the expanse (xindi) surviving.
An agreement or treaty if you will that the expanse is off limits to non-xindi. That the official stand with the Federation is that the expanse does not exist (at the insistance of the xindi) in order to "keep the peace". Explains why we never hear of it in the TOS timeline and after.
I believe that the reason for the altered timeline is that there is someone who wants the total destruction of the expanse for exploitative purposes. There is something in there they want and want bad. Cannot get at it as long as the expanse exists.
So set up a situation where others do your diry work thus keeping your hands clean. Then you go in and reap the benefits of their lunacy. And if a future complication/rival is trashed in the outcome as well, all the better.
Sounds like a plot/plan well thought out by a very intelligent,clever, manipulative, and exploitive people.
Any guesses?
I am proposing that the culprits to my above question are both the reptile and insectoid xindi working with an outside co-conspiritor
They have the will.
They unfortunately don't have the numbers. So pull in an outsider with a juicy promise to share the wealth.
They have the motive(unclear at this time to us)
They've already gotten rid of the avians so they believe.
They were too willing to trash their homeword thus scattering and distroying their fellow xindi.(Not quite succesfull 'cause they didn't get them all)
It explains their overly aggressive behaviors.
With the expanse gone and their fellow xindi species no longer a factor both they and their outside "help" can reap the monetary rewards of whatever resource the expanse is protecting/hiding.
Humans-they are just collateral damage as they say. And a potential future complication (the Federation) that is best gotten rid of.
They have the will.
They unfortunately don't have the numbers. So pull in an outsider with a juicy promise to share the wealth.
They have the motive(unclear at this time to us)
They've already gotten rid of the avians so they believe.
They were too willing to trash their homeword thus scattering and distroying their fellow xindi.(Not quite succesfull 'cause they didn't get them all)
It explains their overly aggressive behaviors.
With the expanse gone and their fellow xindi species no longer a factor both they and their outside "help" can reap the monetary rewards of whatever resource the expanse is protecting/hiding.
Humans-they are just collateral damage as they say. And a potential future complication (the Federation) that is best gotten rid of.
| QUOTE (Sparky @ Nov 2 2003, 08:47 AM) |
| I believe that the original timeline has both earth and the expanse (xindi) surviving. An agreement or treaty if you will that the expanse is off limits to non-xindi. That the official stand with the Federation is that the expanse does not exist (at the insistance of the xindi) in order to "keep the peace". Explains why we never hear of it in the TOS timeline and after. |
I don't know if the reason we may never hear of the Expanse in future series (besides the fact that the writers probably couldn't know there would be a prequel to mix things up) could be because of an "it never existed"-type treaty.
The only species that could possibly be involved in that (and this is just because of who is on Archer's ship as "representatives" of their species) are the humans, Vulcans, and Denobulans. No others could be expected to follow that treaty since there is no Federation yet.
So, the Klingons, Romulans, Andorians, etc., would still be "free" to go into the Expanse. And what about Joe-trader? He may know of the treaty, but if he's he!!-bent on going into that area, he's gonna go. So if his ship never returns, or they find wreckage of it outside the Expanse, questions are going to come up again.
The Expanse doesn't seem that far from Earth, given Enterprise's warp 5 limit and how quickly they got there, so it doesn't seem likely that others wouldn't stumble upon it, even accidentally.
Just my thoughts.
The altered future in which Daniels and Archer were in was fixed, when Archer was brought back to his own time. Daniels thought that the only way to save the timeline was to prevent Archer from being taken by the Suliban. The instant he did though, the timeline collapsed. Because of Archers absence, the Federation never existed.
Archer and Daniels, being protected from the temporal shift, or whatever you want to call it, left them with the opportunity to make things right.
And in the end Daniels may have done the right thing in bringing Archer through to the future. Who knows what might have happened if the Suliban had taken Archer away. This way, Archer was able to come back to his own time in the Suliban temporal chamber, allowing him the opportunity to take Silik as a hostage, which gave him safe passage back to Enterprise, and protected him, his ship and crew, and the timeline.
It may be quite simple as to why we never hear about the Expanse in later years.
One. It could be that it no longer exists after T'Pol and Archer figure out what makes it tick, and find a way to put it out of existence. Or...
Two. There is a vast galaxy out there. We are meeting races we have never seen before, but that is OK, because we know there are hundreds of more races in the Federation then we have ever seen or heard of before. Maybe the Expanse just isn't that big of an issue in the future, being that it is a place we have already been, and the shows revolve around going places no man has ever gone before.
Archer and Daniels, being protected from the temporal shift, or whatever you want to call it, left them with the opportunity to make things right.
And in the end Daniels may have done the right thing in bringing Archer through to the future. Who knows what might have happened if the Suliban had taken Archer away. This way, Archer was able to come back to his own time in the Suliban temporal chamber, allowing him the opportunity to take Silik as a hostage, which gave him safe passage back to Enterprise, and protected him, his ship and crew, and the timeline.
It may be quite simple as to why we never hear about the Expanse in later years.
One. It could be that it no longer exists after T'Pol and Archer figure out what makes it tick, and find a way to put it out of existence. Or...
Two. There is a vast galaxy out there. We are meeting races we have never seen before, but that is OK, because we know there are hundreds of more races in the Federation then we have ever seen or heard of before. Maybe the Expanse just isn't that big of an issue in the future, being that it is a place we have already been, and the shows revolve around going places no man has ever gone before.
| QUOTE (styler001 @ Nov 2 2003, 03:21 PM) |
| The Expanse doesn't seem that far from Earth, given Enterprise's warp 5 limit and how quickly they got there, so it doesn't seem likely that others wouldn't stumble upon it, even accidentally. |
If I remember correctly, it took the Enterprise 3 months to get to the Expanse.
I think that the Expanse is well known by enough races as a place to stay away from that people wouldn't voluntarily go in. Unless of course you were hunting down a race that was trying to destroy your homeworld, and had already killed thousands of your people.
If the Expanse is being artifically created by the mysterious spheres then if you move the spheres to a different location you move the Expanse.
Maybe after all this is resolved the xindi will just up and move themselves into another neighbourhood. A way far away undisclosed neighborhood.
And become part of space exploration legend.
After all how many places that once existed but no longer do come up in general discussion.
Can't tell ya the last time I mentioned the city of Troy in conversation.
Maybe after all this is resolved the xindi will just up and move themselves into another neighbourhood. A way far away undisclosed neighborhood.
And become part of space exploration legend.
After all how many places that once existed but no longer do come up in general discussion.
Can't tell ya the last time I mentioned the city of Troy in conversation.
I mentioned this at Ken's site as well, but I have no problem allowing many things of vast importance be done, discovered, etc, by Enterprise without ever having been mentioned in TOS and other episodes. Why?
For one, the writers didn't know about Enterprise, give 'em a break!
Consider any of your favorite series that takes place today. Make that analagous to any of the Star Trek shows that take place in Enterprise's future. Now back to your favorite series. Lincoln, arguably our greatest president of them all, was senselessly murdered. We fought the Revolutionary War. The celocanth (sp?), a species heretofore thought extinct, was found alive in the twentieth century. Have most, or even any, of these events been discussed on your favorite series? What about many other highly important historic events? Have they all or even mostly been mentioned? NO?!? How could this be? Ummmm, maybe because the series is based on the PRESENT?
Star Fleet may well have discussed Enterprise's adventures and discoveries, but that doesn't mean it had to be brought up during the snippets of Trek that we see during one hour each week.
I love the idea of Enterprise setting it's own path, regardless of things which happened later, which was the original premise, a good one at that. They've already mentioned enough and too much in the way of things, events, and places that CAN be accounted for in TOS, TNG, etc, all the way from Rigel to the Andorians and even to the Borg, ala Star Trek: First Contact's old laundry. ENOUGH, IMHO.
For one, the writers didn't know about Enterprise, give 'em a break!
Consider any of your favorite series that takes place today. Make that analagous to any of the Star Trek shows that take place in Enterprise's future. Now back to your favorite series. Lincoln, arguably our greatest president of them all, was senselessly murdered. We fought the Revolutionary War. The celocanth (sp?), a species heretofore thought extinct, was found alive in the twentieth century. Have most, or even any, of these events been discussed on your favorite series? What about many other highly important historic events? Have they all or even mostly been mentioned? NO?!? How could this be? Ummmm, maybe because the series is based on the PRESENT?
Star Fleet may well have discussed Enterprise's adventures and discoveries, but that doesn't mean it had to be brought up during the snippets of Trek that we see during one hour each week.
I love the idea of Enterprise setting it's own path, regardless of things which happened later, which was the original premise, a good one at that. They've already mentioned enough and too much in the way of things, events, and places that CAN be accounted for in TOS, TNG, etc, all the way from Rigel to the Andorians and even to the Borg, ala Star Trek: First Contact's old laundry. ENOUGH, IMHO.
About the Xindi and the spheres. Have we seen anything which ties the two together?
Enterprise found the first sphere when following a group of raiders, not the Xindi. And even if the Xindi know about the spheres, which I'm sure they do, that doesn't mean they have anything to do with them now.
The spheres are a more advanced technology then we have seen from the Xindi. That's not to say that in their past, before the war that resulted in the distruction of their homeworld, they weren't more advanced then they are now. But, I doubt they still have the knowledge the sphere builders once had. A sign of this is the fact that the spheres are not all working at their full capacity. That could be by design, or a result of centuries of neglect, since nobody remembers how to fix them.
I bet T'Pol finds a way to fix them, and fix them good.
Enterprise found the first sphere when following a group of raiders, not the Xindi. And even if the Xindi know about the spheres, which I'm sure they do, that doesn't mean they have anything to do with them now.
The spheres are a more advanced technology then we have seen from the Xindi. That's not to say that in their past, before the war that resulted in the distruction of their homeworld, they weren't more advanced then they are now. But, I doubt they still have the knowledge the sphere builders once had. A sign of this is the fact that the spheres are not all working at their full capacity. That could be by design, or a result of centuries of neglect, since nobody remembers how to fix them.
I bet T'Pol finds a way to fix them, and fix them good.
Hey Holdem-I have no problem with the Expanse never being mentioned in the TOS series and after.
It is a prequel "problem"
If the writers are worth their salt they will come up with an explanation-the events that will unfold will suffice as explanations go.No reason not to give a silent nod here to the "future"-it won't compromise Enterprise standing on her own as a series. Example of this-they seem to be going their own way re;vulcans. I believe it can and will fit into the overall view dispite what some naysayers have made comment on in past.
It also fits in with how things are in each timeline-hence my City of Troy comment.
You're right,nobody goes around saying "hey, how about that revolutionary war" in day to day conversation anymore.
But I wouldn't put the kabosh on speculation in the area.
First, it's fun.
Second it may give rise to new ideas/perspectives in other areas.
.................................................................................................................
As far as the spheres are concerned we have no idea or not if there are or aren't xindi who are technologically advanced enough to use the spheres to their full capacity.
Might not be enough of those kind of xindi to keep all those spheres in working order.
Or they may be in hiding for their own survival (avians?) until it's safe to come out so to speak.
At the moment we don't have enough info to do anything but speculate.
Speculation is fun tho-gets the mental juices flowin'.
It is a prequel "problem"
If the writers are worth their salt they will come up with an explanation-the events that will unfold will suffice as explanations go.No reason not to give a silent nod here to the "future"-it won't compromise Enterprise standing on her own as a series. Example of this-they seem to be going their own way re;vulcans. I believe it can and will fit into the overall view dispite what some naysayers have made comment on in past.
It also fits in with how things are in each timeline-hence my City of Troy comment.
You're right,nobody goes around saying "hey, how about that revolutionary war" in day to day conversation anymore.
But I wouldn't put the kabosh on speculation in the area.
First, it's fun.
Second it may give rise to new ideas/perspectives in other areas.
.................................................................................................................
As far as the spheres are concerned we have no idea or not if there are or aren't xindi who are technologically advanced enough to use the spheres to their full capacity.
Might not be enough of those kind of xindi to keep all those spheres in working order.
Or they may be in hiding for their own survival (avians?) until it's safe to come out so to speak.
At the moment we don't have enough info to do anything but speculate.
Speculation is fun tho-gets the mental juices flowin'.
| QUOTE (Sparky @ Nov 3 2003, 05:58 AM) |
| Hey Holdem-I have no problem with the Expanse never being mentioned in the TOS series and after. It is a prequel "problem" If the writers are worth their salt they will come up with an explanation-the events that will unfold will suffice as explanations go.No reason not to give a silent nod here to the "future"-it won't compromise Enterprise standing on her own as a series. Example of this-they seem to be going their own way re;vulcans. I believe it can and will fit into the overall view dispite what some naysayers have made comment on in past. It also fits in with how things are in each timeline-hence my City of Troy comment. You're right,nobody goes around saying "hey, how about that revolutionary war" in day to day conversation anymore. But I wouldn't put the kabosh on speculation in the area. First, it's fun. Second it may give rise to new ideas/perspectives in other areas. |
Hey, Sparkster, wanna come out swingin?!? I don't sweat you!
Suddenly, he remembers a quote, something from a past log entry. Chills run down his spine, his throat grows dry, and the cold sweat of pure, unbridled horror runs down his temples as the details of the quote coalesce in his mind:
"...Before my morning java I have been known to frighten small children. If I step outside for a moment people clear the streets in a panic.
There is a raging debate among the neighbors as to whether I cast reflections in mirrors.......
The pitbull down the street from me walks around me in a wide circle-tail tucked between legs and ears curled down.
I get love notes from Frankenstein's monster."
Uhhhhhmmmmm, like i said, Sparky, you go girl! You're the lady with the plan!
Seriously though, folks, (if that's even possible now), my main point was that I don't think the writers OWE us an explnanation for no mention of even galacticly proportioned events. Fun to speculate about, but no worries if no mention made in TOS et al. Like Sparky said, a prequel "problem."
Now those pesky spheres...THAT'S something with endless speculation possibilities, many great possibilities for which have already been put on the table.
Kabosh? Ain't that some sorta smoked sausage or somethin'?
Regarding the Xindi and the spheres again. All I am saying, is that if the Xindi did in fact create this network of spheres centuries ago, then they are showing signs of not knowing how to maintain them.
The spheres seem to be on auto pilot, with nobody around to keep them in perfect working order. And the knowledge it would take to build such large and complicated hardware, would make their "weapon to destroy Earth" project look simple in comparrison, which they don't seem to be having a simple time doing.
I love a good mystery.
And if we are talking about things not mentioned down the road in the other series, they never mentioned Archer, who seems to be a driving force in bringing about the Federation, or the fact that a Vulcan served on a Starfleet ship, or try to explain why every time we have seen the history of the Enterprise, whether in pictures or models, we have seen the tall ship, the aircraft carrier, the space shuttle, and then the NCC 1701's A-E, but never before have we seen the NX-01?
The spheres seem to be on auto pilot, with nobody around to keep them in perfect working order. And the knowledge it would take to build such large and complicated hardware, would make their "weapon to destroy Earth" project look simple in comparrison, which they don't seem to be having a simple time doing.
I love a good mystery.
And if we are talking about things not mentioned down the road in the other series, they never mentioned Archer, who seems to be a driving force in bringing about the Federation, or the fact that a Vulcan served on a Starfleet ship, or try to explain why every time we have seen the history of the Enterprise, whether in pictures or models, we have seen the tall ship, the aircraft carrier, the space shuttle, and then the NCC 1701's A-E, but never before have we seen the NX-01?
| QUOTE (Excalibur @ Nov 3 2003, 02:22 PM) |
| Regarding the Xindi and the spheres again. All I am saying, is that if the Xindi did in fact create this network of spheres centuries ago, then they are showing signs of not knowing how to maintain them. The spheres seem to be on auto pilot, with nobody around to keep them in perfect working order. And the knowledge it would take to build such large and complicated hardware, would make their "weapon to destroy Earth" project look simple in comparrison, which they don't seem to be having a simple time doing. I love a good mystery. And if we are talking about things not mentioned down the road in the other series, they never mentioned Archer, who seems to be a driving force in bringing about the Federation, or the fact that a Vulcan served on a Starfleet ship, or try to explain why every time we have seen the history of the Enterprise, whether in pictures or models, we have seen the tall ship, the aircraft carrier, the space shuttle, and then the NCC 1701's A-E, but never before have we seen the NX-01? |
Good points, Excalibur. I really don't think the Xindi had anything to do with the spheres, but am more of the camp which says the Xindi are the result of genetic manipulation by the creators of the spheres.
Good points about prequel things not mentioned later on also.
As to the one of the original points of this thread, I truly hope they don't make Daniels a "bad guy" FG, FWIW. I really like the sympathetic, caring character portrayed as Daniels, especially when he realized what his miscalculation had done to the time line a while back. I'm a big boy and realize that one can stare you blandly in the face while lying through their teeth, but I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case with Daniels.
Now an interesting plot twist would be that the ancient Xindi wanted to "better" themselves and the resultant, warring factions are the failed result. Both the spheres and the rubble they found where the Xindi home world used to be are quite old, if memory serves, which could mean that when the planet was blown away, much of the technology went with it.
Hayyyy...Wait a minute! Could the Avians have been a peaceful, highly developed species who built the spheres to protect their region of space and which decided long ago that it might be nice to "help" some of the other species along genetically for some "terrestrial" company? And might the highly paranoid Lizard and Insect Xindi have stolen and used some of the Avians' technology against them, not really having a clue what they had?
Think about it. The Xindi foreman told Archer that the home world had been blown away by the lizards and insects in the wars between the races. This means that the technology to destroy a planet obviously existed on the Xindi homeworld while it still existed in one piece! So why the big deal about creating a "planet zapper" for Earth? Without the Avians, are they are starting back at square one? Of course, the Xindi forman also said that their home world was extremely seismically unstable and that the cataclysm resulted from a chain reaction which was set off, so perhaps they really didn't need too much external "help" to blow their planet away. Hmmmm.....
Ok, done rambling for now...
Wait! Wait! I've got it! The Xindi home world and Kal-El's home planet Krypton, a highly advanced civilization which was lost when their planet exploded are one and the same! I mean, it all fits! Surely stopping a planet killing weapon from being used against Earth is "a job for Superman!!!" Ok, I've lost it.
I agree about Daniels. He is representing Starfleet's future. I can't imagine they would take Archers tie to the future, then make him out to be a bad guy. Archer might lose faith in where the human race is headed.
OOOHHHH I LOVE ALL THIS SPECULATION!!!!
Fun, isn't it!
I certainly won't be the one to put the "smoked sausage" on that!
now, pass the sauerkraut.
Fun, isn't it!
I certainly won't be the one to put the "smoked sausage" on that!
now, pass the sauerkraut.
Matt Winston, aka Daniels
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0935616/
Production Report for "Carpenter Street": http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/3275.html
This show is tentatively scheduled to air November 26.
It looks like we don't have long to wait for Daniels to come back, but it won't be this week.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0935616/
Production Report for "Carpenter Street": http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/3275.html
This show is tentatively scheduled to air November 26.
It looks like we don't have long to wait for Daniels to come back, but it won't be this week.
I'm thinking that after this episode, T'Pol is going to have to concide the point, that time travel existis whatever the Vulcan party line is.
Holdemfoldem
[Think about it. The Xindi foreman told Archer that the home world had been blown away by the lizards and insects in the wars between the races. This means that the technology to destroy a planet obviously existed on the Xindi homeworld while it still existed in one piece! So why the big deal about creating a "planet zapper" for Earth?]
Maybe the secret to the weapon is getting it out of the expanse. Remember that many races complain that their ships can ENTER but cannot EXIT the expanse. Also, Xindi warp technology appears limitted based on the conversation between Archer and the Foreman.
I still think the spheres are the Xindi equivalent of a warp highway network. and the spacial anomalies are just eddie currents coming off of the road. Maybe if the spheres get fixed the eddies won't occur and the expanse can be more quickly traveled.
Daniels purpose in life?????????? A simple Starfleet officer.
[Think about it. The Xindi foreman told Archer that the home world had been blown away by the lizards and insects in the wars between the races. This means that the technology to destroy a planet obviously existed on the Xindi homeworld while it still existed in one piece! So why the big deal about creating a "planet zapper" for Earth?]
Maybe the secret to the weapon is getting it out of the expanse. Remember that many races complain that their ships can ENTER but cannot EXIT the expanse. Also, Xindi warp technology appears limitted based on the conversation between Archer and the Foreman.
I still think the spheres are the Xindi equivalent of a warp highway network. and the spacial anomalies are just eddie currents coming off of the road. Maybe if the spheres get fixed the eddies won't occur and the expanse can be more quickly traveled.
Daniels purpose in life?????????? A simple Starfleet officer.
| QUOTE (XPRIZEMAN @ Nov 4 2003, 07:12 AM) |
| Also, Xindi warp technology appears limitted based on the conversation between Archer and the Foreman. I still think the spheres are the Xindi equivalent of a warp highway network. and the spacial anomalies are just eddie currents coming off of the road. Maybe if the spheres get fixed the eddies won't occur and the expanse can be more quickly traveled.. |
Their warp technology may appear limited, but when the Xindi pod came and carved up Earth, didn't it just appear through one of those "warp highways"? If they can create them wherever they want, they don't really need much in the way of warp capability.
If the spheres are some massive slipstream generators, or what ever they are calling this type of travel, that would explain a few things.
The ability for Xindi ships to just appear and disappear, leaving no trace for one.
I wonder if the Xindi council are even in the expanse? They seem pretty sure of themselves, that Archer won't find them.
If the Xindi use slipstream, instead of warp, how would disabling the spheres effect their plans? They would be left up an expanse without a paddle. Or, you know what I mean.
The ability for Xindi ships to just appear and disappear, leaving no trace for one.
I wonder if the Xindi council are even in the expanse? They seem pretty sure of themselves, that Archer won't find them.
If the Xindi use slipstream, instead of warp, how would disabling the spheres effect their plans? They would be left up an expanse without a paddle. Or, you know what I mean.
Do we absolutely know for certain that Daniels is a Starfleet officer from the 31st-Century? Do we really know what his real intentions are? As far as we know, he may be working for a yet unknown faction in the Temporal Cold War--there's evidence to suggest that there are at least three participants--that may only need the Federation around to achieve a certain goal in the future...
I find it odd that it was Future Guy--of all people--who warned Archer of the Xindi.
WHERE WAS DANIELS???
I find it odd that it was Future Guy--of all people--who warned Archer of the Xindi.
WHERE WAS DANIELS???
Daniels, being from in the future, would know how things are supposed to work out, and only interfere if things got of course by someone messing with the timeline. So, if history recorded that Earth was attacked by the Xindi, and that it was FG who warned Archer, then that is the way he would have to let it play out, otherwise he would be altering the timeline.
They may play a reversal on us, but I'm pretty sure that Daniels is Starfleet. But, if the writers find they need to shake things up, it could always turn out differently.
They may play a reversal on us, but I'm pretty sure that Daniels is Starfleet. But, if the writers find they need to shake things up, it could always turn out differently.
| QUOTE (Excalibur @ Nov 5 2003, 10:28 AM) |
| Daniels, being from in the future, would know how things are supposed to work out, and only interfere if things got of course by someone messing with the timeline. So, if history recorded that Earth was attacked by the Xindi, and that it was FG who warned Archer, then that is the way he would have to let it play out, otherwise he would be altering the timeline. |
If that's so, then it is then very much reasonable to assume that Future Guy also knows how things are going to work out as well and is doing his best to make sure that it doesn't turn out that way.
The way I see it, Future Guy and Daniels are both tampering with the past--both of them using Archer to tweak future events to their liking. Each time either of them contacts Archer represents a violation of history that eventually provokes the other into action.
The problem with a Temporal Cold War is that we're dealing with abrupt changes in history by one faction that another faction tries to correct. It's a game of brinkmanship--a series of moves and countermoves, with both sides trying to outwit and outmaneuver the other in order to win.
| QUOTE |
| They may play a reversal on us, but I'm pretty sure that Daniels is Starfleet. But, if the writers find they need to shake things up, it could always turn out differently. |
IMO, if Daniels was indeed really working on the side of the angels, then he should have been the one to tell Archer about the Xindi. He should have been the one to suggest going into the Expanse to stop them before they destroyed Earth. Something this big and history-changing shouldn't be left totally to Future Guy...
I find Daniels' continued silence very suspicious--and makes me wonder just who is really the good guy here--Daniels or Future Guy?
I find it comical to think that every move FG makes to alter the timeline, is exactly the move he would have to make to insure the timeline.
In his moves to change history, he is actually just playing out history the way it is recorded.
FG isn't from as far in the future as Daniels, so Daniels and his contemporaries have an advantage on him.
In his moves to change history, he is actually just playing out history the way it is recorded.
FG isn't from as far in the future as Daniels, so Daniels and his contemporaries have an advantage on him.
The only problem with that idea is that Daniels has been totally unable to prevent Future Guy from interfering with time.
Doesn't sound like much of an advantage to me if Future Guy can still violate the timeline at whim.
If Daniels wasn't concerned about Future Guy altering events in the past because it'll all work out in the end, then there wouldn't be a Temporal Cold War...
Doesn't sound like much of an advantage to me if Future Guy can still violate the timeline at whim.
If Daniels wasn't concerned about Future Guy altering events in the past because it'll all work out in the end, then there wouldn't be a Temporal Cold War...
Their are things that have to happen in order for the timeline to stay on track.
If they know from accounts of history, that FG did this, that, and another thing then they can't stop him or they are the ones who will be changing history. Not FG.
If they know from accounts of history, that FG did this, that, and another thing then they can't stop him or they are the ones who will be changing history. Not FG.
But Daniels already changed history perhaps more than Future Guy did. He established contact with Archer, he left behind valuable technology from the future aboard NX-01--technology that the crew used to get out of a tough jam--and even screwed up the entire timeline big-time once by removing Archer from a critical moment in the 22nd-Century because Future Guy caught him off-guard with the Suliban...
Besides, the very nature of a Cold War represents two or more opposing sides that position themselves in such a way that--in the end--neither side has a real advantage over the other and an uneasy stalemate is achieved...
Besides, the very nature of a Cold War represents two or more opposing sides that position themselves in such a way that--in the end--neither side has a real advantage over the other and an uneasy stalemate is achieved...
What I am saying is, that as far as history is concerned that is exactly what was supposed to happen.
If Daniels hadn't left that information behind, then the timeline would have been messed up.
If Daniels hadn't pulled Archer through to the future, then things wouldn't have turned out as they were supposed to.
Yes, when Archer was pulled through time, history collapsed. But, if he hadn't pulled him through, it would have collapsed anyway. This way, Archer was able to make it back to his own time, and save Enterprise, because he had Silik as insurance.
Daniels and the rest know about the temporal cold war, but they don't know who is behind it yet. If these guys were going back in time themselves, then maybe they could catch them, but instead they are pulling the strings from the future, leaving Daniels and the rest trying to figure out who they are, and where in time they are.
If Daniels hadn't left that information behind, then the timeline would have been messed up.
If Daniels hadn't pulled Archer through to the future, then things wouldn't have turned out as they were supposed to.
Yes, when Archer was pulled through time, history collapsed. But, if he hadn't pulled him through, it would have collapsed anyway. This way, Archer was able to make it back to his own time, and save Enterprise, because he had Silik as insurance.
Daniels and the rest know about the temporal cold war, but they don't know who is behind it yet. If these guys were going back in time themselves, then maybe they could catch them, but instead they are pulling the strings from the future, leaving Daniels and the rest trying to figure out who they are, and where in time they are.
| QUOTE (Excalibur @ Nov 5 2003, 09:23 PM) |
| What I am saying is, that as far as history is concerned that is exactly what was supposed to happen. |
You see, this is where I disagree. I believe that the whole point of the Temporal Cold War is that things aren't happening as they were supposed to and that Daniels (or Future Guy) are trying to get things back on track through Archer and by others.
So far, it's been pretty much a series of moves and countermoves by either side--with neither Future Guy or Daniels getting an upper hand (hence the reference of their conflict as a Temporal Cold War). It is when one side does indeed score a decisive advantage over the other, that I believe this will escalate into a full-scale Temporal War.
I think one of the subtexts in ENT is that the future (even Trek's future) isn't written in stone and can be changed...
Maybe future guy is Q. 
I would welcome the future Vulcans at this point doing some serious meddling and preventing anyone from ever discovering that time travel is possible.
I would welcome the future Vulcans at this point doing some serious meddling and preventing anyone from ever discovering that time travel is possible.
The more and more I think about time travel, the more and more I'm glad that it exists only in science fiction.
We have enough problems in the world to deal with. Trying to make things right that happened in the past, has a more likely chance of ruining the present, then fixing it.
Then again, hypothetically speaking, we could be living in an altered timeline right this very minute. If this is the good version of the timeline, I'd hate to see the bad version!
We have enough problems in the world to deal with. Trying to make things right that happened in the past, has a more likely chance of ruining the present, then fixing it.
Then again, hypothetically speaking, we could be living in an altered timeline right this very minute. If this is the good version of the timeline, I'd hate to see the bad version!
Time travel by itself is fine--the legendary U.K. series Doctor Who actually did it wonderfully on a regular basis--but it's when you start throwing in such things as alternate timelines and temporal paradoxes that it does become a royal headache and you wish you hadn't gotten out of bed this morning.
You can't even call it "cause and effect" because sometimes the effect is the reason for the cause, and sometimes the cause creates several different effects that sometimes contradict each other and cancel them out and then there's the belief that if you go too far back or forward in time, you'll meet yourself or you'll possibly...
KA-BOOM!
Sometimes the best way to deal with time travel is not to deal with it at all...
You can't even call it "cause and effect" because sometimes the effect is the reason for the cause, and sometimes the cause creates several different effects that sometimes contradict each other and cancel them out and then there's the belief that if you go too far back or forward in time, you'll meet yourself or you'll possibly...
KA-BOOM!
Sometimes the best way to deal with time travel is not to deal with it at all...
| QUOTE |
| Then again, hypothetically speaking, we could be living in an altered timeline right this very minute. |
There is a theory that parallel dimensions are actually nothing more than alternate timelines, in which for every possible event that could ever happen, it did actually happen somewhere else. For example, there may be indeed a timeline in which JFK wasn't assasinated, another in which 9/11 was averted, yet another in which the Axis won World War II, still another in which Man went to Mars back in the 1980s, and another in which early Man was wiped out by the Dinosaurs during the prehistoric age...
Infinite possibilities=infinite number of other realities/timelines--which each one perfectly valid as the "true" timeline (who indeed is to say that our timeline is the "correct" one?).
| QUOTE |
| If this is the good version of the timeline, I'd hate to see the bad version! |
I've seen it--Martha Stewart is currently President of the United States and everyone is required by law to wear something pastel-colored at least once a day...
| QUOTE (Darth Ravage @ Nov 7 2003, 06:41 AM) | ||||
| Time travel by itself is fine--the legendary U.K. series Doctor Who actually did it wonderfully on a regular basis--but it's when you start throwing in such things as alternate timelines and temporal paradoxes that it does become a royal headache and you wish you hadn't gotten out of bed this morning. You can't even call it "cause and effect" because sometimes the effect is the reason for the cause, and sometimes the cause creates several different effects that sometimes contradict each other and cancel them out and then there's the belief that if you go too far back or forward in time, you'll meet yourself or you'll possibly... KA-BOOM! Sometimes the best way to deal with time travel is not to deal with it at all...
There is a theory that parallel dimensions are actually nothing more than alternate timelines, in which for every possible event that could ever happen, it did actually happen somewhere else. For example, there may be indeed a timeline in which JFK wasn't assasinated, another in which 9/11 was averted, yet another in which the Axis won World War II, still another in which Man went to Mars back in the 1980s, and another in which early Man was wiped out by the Dinosaurs during the prehistoric age... Infinite possibilities=infinite number of other realities/timelines--which each one perfectly valid as the "true" timeline (who indeed is to say that our timeline is the "correct" one?).
I've seen it--Martha Stewart is currently President of the United States and everyone is required by law to wear something pastel-colored at least once a day... |
It's just BECAUSE of such headaches that I love the Silver Age Superman comics theory on time travel, (of which Superman was capable). Basically, there were two rules for traveling back in time:
1) If you go back to a time when you were still alive, you fade into a phantom representation of yourself, able to see, hear, etc, everything that goes on, but unable to be seen or make any form of physical contact. Kinda like you're in another dimension looking in. Reason? It is a physical impossibility to exist in any time line more than once!
2) If you travel back before you were born, you can interact normally with everyone else, but ONLY to the extent that you have absolutely NO effect on the timeline. The example given was that Superman couldn't go back in time and, say, prevent Lincoln's assination. The timeline was fixed, whatever happened happened, and that was that.
As for travel into the future, you could do whatever you wanted, which prompted the Legion of Superheros from the 30th century to go back in time and recruit Superboy to join their ranks and come forward in time to help them on occasion.
Simple and neat. Not nearly as exciting, but FAR LESS headache inducing!
Ok, done rambling for now.
| QUOTE (Excalibur @ Nov 2 2003, 03:05 AM) |
| I don't think Daniels is in league with anyone. I think he is a loyal Starfleet officer, just doing his job. |
Ahhhh....... but is he Starfleet? Or was he just posing to be Starfleet during the time he was a crew member of Enterprise NX-01? I know he presents himself as if he is Starfleet. Hard to say.... could be. I've heard him refered to as temporal agent Daniels.
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