Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ "regeneration", Revisited for most, first time for me

[holdemfoldem]

Finally got to see "Regeneration". Sorry to bring up an already discussed subject, but would like to give my impressions. Feel free to jump in!

First, let me say that, the more I see of the previews of the adventures in the Expanse, the more I like. Cannot wait for 9/10/2003! And just a day before the anniversary of thousands of lives needlessly swept out of existence, Daddys and Mommys who will never be coming home again, even children who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, leaving loved ones to carry on and pick up the pieces, all because some seem to think they're doing their religious duty to God by killing themselves to kill others. Almost eerie timing, just before a day I shall be in deep mourning.

Ok, comments about "Regeneration":

Borg in 22nd century (Binars mentioned by Phlox too, for that matter), really bad. Soooooo hope that the new direction they're taking continues to explore challenges, species, threats, etc, of THE EARLY YEARS. You know, the original premise of the series?!? (What a concept!)

They dated the Borg ship debris as 100 years old. Didn't Archer date that part from FG as a negative date, indicating it came from the future? Why not the debris? Oh, ya, they used a different method! Ya, that's the ticket!

Phlox still flippant about humans embracing everything with open arms. Loved the lesson he got and the complete disgust showed about being assimilated and forced to lose what he was to become what they are. He was willing to overcome it or die trying, (awwwwright Phlox!) I really like Phlox a lot, all except his sanctimonious, self righteous attitude every time he talks with a crewman about embracing differences, like he's some sort of a master at it and the crewman is so naive. I hope he's starting to realize that humans may not always be the ones who are clueless about when to and NOT to ebrace other ways. He certainly got a chance to try the shoe on his foot this time!

I sooooo, hope this is the end of the Borg in the 22nd century. Those two left floating in space, as well as whatever survived the complete distruction of the transport vessel, (much the same as when the Sphere was destroyed by the Enterprise D in "First Contact"), not to be heard of again, if at all, until Picard et al's era. They sorta implied that this would be the case when they said that the sub space message, if it made it at all, would only reach the Delta Quadrant by the time when Q intorduces us to the Borg (even then prematurely).

Overall, a good episode. Good special effects, action seens, etc. Also good to see Archer make the tough decision to destroy the transport when it was clear that all who were assimilated were lost, given that he only had a 22nd century star ship and technology to take on their 24th century, Borg like adaptability. He wasn't proud of having to do it, (as he shouldn't have been), but he made the tough decision. Shades of things to come when battling 22nd terrorists in the Expanse? Based on the previews so far, looks promising. Sure hope so.

Bring on the Expanse!

[duffbeer77]

I haven't seen this episode since it originally aired but I remember really liking it. Lot's of action and suspense. And for the first time in a long time the Borg were actually scary and not "watered down".
I think they avoided continuity "problems" very well. And I thought it was cool that they mentioned the Binars.
I also read somewhere this would be the only Borg appearence on Enterprise. I hope that's true.

[holdemfoldem]

QUOTE (duffbeer77 @ Aug 25 2003, 11:18 AM)

I haven't seen this episode since it originally aired but I remember really liking it. Lot's of action and suspense. And for the first time in a long time the Borg were actually scary and not "watered down". I think they avoided continuity "problems" very well. And I thought it was cool that they mentioned the Binars. I also read somewhere this would be the only Borg appearence on Enterprise. I hope that's true.

Hope so too, duffbeer77.

Do you, or anyone else, know why the the nano probes took so long to assimilate people? Ok, Pholx's species characteristics allowed his immune system to fight them off well, though they were adapting. Those other two aliens woke up still with their own wills, then quickly got taken over, so perhaps they were resistant too.

Swallowing hard now to say two species, two resistant immune systems, but then even the first human to get injected at the scene of the crashed Borg sphere was found unconscious with only one side of his face showing symptoms of assimilation.

But on "First Contact", and Voyager eps, the assimilation process covered the entire face in a second or two and the individual was, at that point, for all intents and purposes, one of them. They just injected them and the next thing you know, they "fell into the Borg ranks".

Just seemed kind of weird, since they did everything else with 24th century Borg speed, like assimilating the Transport, doubling its speed and more in a remarkably short time, arming her, etc, the new drones acquired shielding very quickly, etc.

Yet, when they injected people with nano probes, it sure took a while to do the trick. Just kind of a weird anomally, with no explanations.

Thoughts?

[Ster J]

People are incredible more complicated than machines.

Does that sound logical?

[holdemfoldem]

QUOTE (Ster J @ Aug 25 2003, 07:21 PM)

People are incredible more complicated than machines. Does that sound logical?

Well, since ya' didn't put a "Sarcasm alert" ahead, I'd have to say, logical to say humans are much more complex than machines, but not logical regading my premises.

My point was that in the 24th century, both in the movie, "First Contact", as well as on the "Voyager" series, when a Borg injected a human, and, in one case on Voayger, an alien, the entire face was wacked out with nano probes and cute little star shaped things on their faces in a matter of seconds and they were immediately under Borg control, whereas in the 22nd century, everyone, aliens and humans, when injected with presumably the same 24th century nano probes, took a long time to become assimilated.

Can cut Pholx some slack, apparently because of his immune system. Maybe the other two aliens also, although they eventuall came around to the Borg "way", but the human they found at the crash point in the arctic circle only had the lower quadrant of one side of his face taken out. SLOW!

Whole thing just seemed to be taking too long based on past assimilations.

And, while we're talking about speed, all the Borg seemed to move with their usual stoic slowness yet resolve of purpose except those two aliens who attacked Phlox and the guard in sick bay. Any ideas why these "Borg newbies" seemed ready to do calisthenics, hand springs, and in general move like olympic gymnasts, while their big brothers and sisters seem to move more to the slower, "Borg Beat"?

Wait, that's it! If these "kids" had made it back to the transport, those young whipper snappers would have been placed in Borg maturation chambers and taught how to do T-H-E---B-O-R-G!!!

[C'pok]

My take on "Regeneration":
-----------------------------------

I'm not sure why the speed the of the assimilations were slow. The Borg were frozen for 100 years, that has to take a lot out of you even if you are a Borg. It must have slowed down the nano-probes.

When 'Q' introduced Picard and crew to the Borg they responded as if they had never seen them before, except for Guinan of course. This does not in any way imply that the Borg had not encountered Humans before. From the episode of ENT "Regeneration", they defeated thjis small band, or should I say collective rather easily. It wouldn't play that big of a part int the history books. You have to remember the Hansons, Seven of Nine's parents. They had heard of the Borg and went out hunting them. As I remeber they didn't go too far before they encountered them which implies they were close enough to be studying the Humans. Plus at the end of this episode Archer says that the homing beacon would take about 200 years and into the 24th century.

[C'pok]

QUOTE (holdemfoldem @ Aug 24 2003, 11:46 PM)

They dated the Borg ship debris as 100 years old. Didn't Archer date that part from FG as a negative date, indicating it came from the future? Why not the debris? Oh, ya, they used a different method! Ya, that's the ticket!

I could be wrong but I think they were carbon dating the debris as to how long it had been laying frozen on the surface. It had been laying there for 100 years, that is how long it had been since Picard blew them away in "First Contact". I'm not up on the exact procedure so I don't know if that is actually possible, but I think that is what the writers were shooting for.

[C'pok]

QUOTE (holdemfoldem @ Aug 24 2003, 11:46 PM)

I sooooo, hope this is the end of the Borg in the 22nd century. Those two left floating in space, as well as whatever survived the complete distruction of the transport vessel, (much the same as when the Sphere was destroyed by the Enterprise D in "First Contact"), not to be heard of again, if at all, until Picard et al's era. They sorta implied that this would be the case when they said that the sub space message, if it made it at all, would only reach the Delta Quadrant by the time when Q intorduces us to the Borg (even then prematurely).

I think you are correct that we have seen the last of the Borg in the 22nd century. The Borg on board the transport vessel were destroyed, vaporized I would imagine. The floaters will eventually fall into some object's gravity and crash and burn. That takes care of all of them.

I believe the reason Archer didn't have any trouble blowing up the ship the Borg were on is because it was a 22nd century transport vessel, I think. Anyway it was 22nd century technology that the newly assimilated Borg were in progress of upgrading to Borg technology. Given a little more time Archer would have had a lot more trouble. As it was, this incident shouldn't get much attention in the history books. Seeing as they never introduced themselves as the Borg the history books would only have a description. Many people will probably not even know about it at all.

[holdemfoldem]

QUOTE (C'pok @ Aug 26 2003, 04:39 PM)

QUOTE (holdemfoldem @ Aug 24 2003, 11:46 PM) They dated the Borg ship debris as 100 years old.  Didn't Archer date that part from FG as a negative date, indicating it came from the future?  Why not the debris?  Oh, ya, they used a different method!  Ya, that's the ticket! I could be wrong but I think they were carbon dating the debris as to how long it had been laying frozen on the surface. It had been laying there for 100 years, that is how long it had been since Picard blew them away in "First Contact". I'm not up on the exact procedure so I don't know if that is actually possible, but I think that is what the writers were shooting for.

Not sure myself, C'Pok, but I did note they used carbon dating instead of quantum datiing, whatever the latter is (techno babble). Anyway, ya got me curious and I'll look it up and post here. Seems to me, though, that carbon dating involves how long something has existed, not how long it has been in a location, like the Borg crash site. Be back as soon as I get some facts...

[holdemfoldem]

Ok, got it. Here's the link:

http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creati...ion/carbon.html

The Readers Digest is: Carbon dating tells you when something died, so, if it wasn't BOTH alive at one point AND land dwelling, ya can't carbon date it.

When they said they had carbon dated, I'm pretty sure the reference was made to the debris, and I'm quite sure they hadn't discovered their first Borg buried beneath the ice yet.

More details in the quote below.

Guess they didn't do their homework before that little fau pau (sp?), eh? Ya, ya, I know, this is Trek and we love 'em anyway. Probably they did the dating on Borg tissue traces from the hull, their methods are more advanced, yada yada yada. Heck, we'll even forgive the writers that the Borg feed off energy, not food, and that carbon dating would not work on them or any traces they leave anyway.


Anywho, here's the relevant part of the quote, taken from the above link:

The Short Summary
Carbon dating can be used on material which was living in the last few tens of thousands of years, and which got its carbon from the air. The method has become more accurate in the last few decades.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Theory
Carbon 14 is a radioactive isotope of carbon. It is produced in the upper atmosphere by radiation from the sun. (Specifically, neutrons hit nitrogen-14 atoms and transmute them to carbon.)
Land plants, such as trees, get their carbon from carbon dioxide in the air. So, some fraction of their carbon is C14. The same is true of any creature that gets its carbon by eating such plants. We can measure this in living things today.

Suppose such a creature dies, and the body is preserved. The C14 will undergo radioactive decay, and after 5730 years, half of it will be gone. Eventually, all of it will be gone. So, if we find such a body, the amount of C14 in it will tell us how long ago it was alive.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are There Things That Can't Be Carbon-Dated?
Yes. The method doesn't work on things which didn't get their carbon from the air. This leaves out aquatic creatures, since their carbon might (for example) come from dissolved carbonate rock. That causes a dating problem with any animal that eats seafood.

[C'pok]

QUOTE (holdemfoldem @ Aug 27 2003, 10:18 AM)

Ok, got it. Here's the link: http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creati...ion/carbon.html The Readers Digest is: Carbon dating tells you when something died, so, if it wasn't BOTH alive at one point AND land dwelling, ya can't carbon date it.

Thanks! Interesting, the Borg are part organic and could possibly be carbon dated, but their electronic components supply all the organic nutrients needed so maybe they can't be carbon dated, but then how does the organic nutrients get created? Possibly by using materials at hand such as air. I give up and am going to submit to the writers, this is a small issue and the episode was a good one.

[holdemfoldem]

QUOTE (C'pok @ Aug 27 2003, 11:27 AM)

...I give up and am going to submit to the writers, this is a small issue and the episode was a good one.

Agreed, C'Pok. A good episode, certainly not at all spoiled by this little aside.

[holdemfoldem]

FWIW: One other thing about this ep is that it actually showed that their torpedos could do some damage at the end when they destroyed the transport. Up until then, they took two torpedos just to severe an arm from that automated space station and hardly scratched the surface of the aliens who wanted to take them and drain stuff outta their bodies, wayyyy back early in the first season.

A moot point now that they have phtonic torpedos, but still liked that they at least tried to show that those torpedos were worth something more that scrap metal!